Bangladesh Defense Forum
No lack of understanding with political parties: Yunus
Nurul Kabir and Monwarul Islam 04 January, 2025, 00:00
Chief adviser Muhammad Yunus, right, speaks to New Age editor Nurul Kabir at chief adviser’s official residence in Dhaka on December 29. | Courtesy: Parvez Ahmad/Drik
The interim government will start a subject-wise wider dialogue with political parties and other sections of society in mid-January this year to reach a broader consensus on the reforms agenda and will hold general elections in the stipulated time (late this year or by mid-2026), says Professor Muhammad Yunus, chief adviser to the interim government, in an exclusive interview with New Age on December 29, 2024, taken in Bangla at his official residence in Dhaka by Nurul Kabir, the editor, along with Monwarul Islam, assistant editor, of the newspaper.
New Age: You are known for being very efficient in evading questions, but we want to have a very sincere conversation (on the issues of national concerns) today.
Professor Muhammad Yunus: (Laughter) I will definitely talk with an open mind.
New Age: Would you, please, tell us the differences in feelings and experiences that you find between the four months of your life before the fall of Sheikh Hasina’s autocratic regime on August 5 this year and the four months that you have been running affairs of the state since then? Which phase is bad and which one is good?
Muhammad Yunus: Well, no phase is bad. But, of course, it’s two different kinds of worlds, different kinds of experiences. Before taking up the present responsibility, I was busy with my own world, my private world and was happy with what I was doing. There were certain debates and arguments around my work those days, but I handled those things my own way. But the new responsibility that I have taken up [on August 8 this year] is a totally different world altogether. When the student leaders, none of whom I ever knew, requested me on August 5 to head the Interim Government, I was quite hesitant whether or not I should take up a responsibility of something that I have no experience of whatsoever. Then, on their insistence that I should take the responsibility, I thought that so much blood has been shed and so many lives have been sacrificed, I should agree and, therefore, agreed to take the responsibility. So, I am here. This is a different world and there are many challenges. Let’s see what can be done.
New Age: Well, if the new phase hadn’t come about on August 5, you might have landed in jail. Right?
Muhammad Yunus: Yes, it could have been so. I was in a different country at the time and given what I saw when I left the country in the midst of a curfew, I was thinking those days about which country I should move to so that I won’t have to return to land in jail.
New Age: After you had taken over on August 8, the court cases relating to certain allegations that the government of Sheikh Hasina brought against you got quashed. Don’t you think that people might have reason to believe that your present position contributed to the acquittal?
Muhammad Yunus: I think that the cases would have gone anyway, no matter if I were at home or abroad, in power or not, for the allegations were baseless. My lawyers would have successfully been able to legally pursue the court that the cases against me did not have any merit. So, whether or not I had been here [in power], I would have been acquitted of the charges.
New Age: Does that mean that the court would have been fair to you even if there had been no regime change? There were, and still are, allegations that courts during the previous regime were being influenced by the government. Still, you believe that you would have been acquitted if the old regime had still continued?
Muhammad Yunus: No, they did not acquit me those days. If they were still in power, I definitely would have been sent to jail. Every time I went to the court, I thought I could enter the jail today and I, along with some other accused in the cases concerned, was mentally prepared for that. I took it easily and thought it to be a fait accompli. Now that the victors of the student-mass uprising are to stand for justice, I would be acquitted irrespective of my position or location.
New Age: You just said that you were hesitant to take the responsibility of running affairs of state as it is a different world that involves politics and you did not have any political experience. But you took the initiative of launching a political party in 2007. If you continued with the initiative, you would have to take political responsibilities.
Muhammad Yunus: There were no [functional] political parties in the country those days while my friends, associates and well-wishers started persuading me to launch a party, arguing that none else could take such an initiative at that time. Eventually, in the face of intense persuasion, I reluctantly decided to do so, but I didn’t have any long-term plan to do politics and go to power. However, while responding to the curious journalists at an airport, I told them that I would launch a party. Then, a name was of the party selected, Nagarik Shakti (Citizens’ Power), and as the process was going ahead, public opinions on the issue were also solicited. But, some 10 weeks into the process, I started feeling that I was getting deep into politics which I was not liking from within and I started trying to distance myself from the process. Finally, I suddenly announced that I was not going to form any political party. In fact, I didn’t have any plan to advance the political initiative to go to power.
New Age: Did you consult your ‘friends, associates and well-wishers’ concerned before announcing that you were no longer interested in politics?
Muhammad Yunus: No, I didn’t. Everybody got very surprised.
New Age: They were supposed to get upset by your unilateral announcement.
Muhammad Yunus: Yes, they got very upset as they, after doing so many things for the proposed party, had not even informed of my decision to dissolve the process before it was made public.
New Age: Are they now happy [that you are in power]?
Muhammad Yunus: They do not even come near me, possibly in the fear as to where I would lead them to again. [Laughter]
New Age: Is there any connection, in terms of thoughts and ideas, between your defunct party, Nagarik Shakti, and the Nagarik Committee that a section of the victorious students has recently constituted?
Muhammad Yunus: Nothing, except the common word Nagarik that they have adopted. They have not discussed anything about it with me.
New Age: You have claimed more than once at different fora, national and international, that the ‘students have appointed me’ to the position of the chief adviser of the Interim Government. Then, if the students who have fought together for a common immediate cause — the overthrow of an autocratic government — now get divided into different groups along their respective political lines, don’t you think that your mandate would be questioned?
Muhammad Yunus: Well, we have at the moment an ‘interim government’, of which I am a part, while theirs is politics. For how many days I have been in this government is one thing and what they are doing and what would be the consequences of their political exercise is another. They, as citizens, are to think what they have to do. I, as [head of the] government, am doing my part as much as possible.
New Age: You are functioning as a government, as you say, by the mandate given by the students. This means that the source of your mandate is a united student community. Now, if the students get divided along political lines, your mandate…
Muhammad Yunus: Would be weakened. Definitely, would be weakened.
New Age. Do you see any such possibility?
Muhammad Yunus: Possibilities are always there. Nevertheless, if one [factor] gets weakened, another would get stronger. One factor would add to the other.
New Age: Well, people like us who are outside the power process have observed that the students have invited you to take over power while the armed forces have endorsed the idea and the organised political forces that are power contenders have promised their support for you. When you often claim that the students providing leadership for the victorious mass uprising have appointed you to the position of the chief adviser, don’t you think that the two other forces — military and political — might be upset about it?
Muhammad Yunus: Quite possible. But the fact remains that it was the student leaders who have invited me to the position. So, I have said that the students have said that the students have appointed me. And that all concerned have supported me remains a larger issue. But I did not say this to hurt or upset others. Nothing like that.
New Age: As you know, sir, there are things called power blocs while all the three organised forces are important for you, the existence of your government. Aren’t they?
Muhammad Yunus: Definitely.
New Age: The name of the position that you are now holding, the nomenclature of the position, is the ‘chief adviser.’ Why did you agree to this idea? Who do you advise?
Muhammad Yunus: This didn’t come across my mind. I was told to take the responsibility and I took it.
New Age: Adviser cannot be the nomenclature of an executive position. An ‘adviser’ is s/he who advises someone else.
Muhammad Yunus: I didn’t go deep into the issue. I was requested to take the responsibility of the government. I took it. I was told that in such a [political] situation, the name of such a position happens to be like this.
New Age: Well, again, the chief adviser is the chief of other advisers. All of them are advisers. The question is: whom to advise?
Muhammad Yunus: I didn’t think about it.
New Age: While forming your cabinet, did you have the full freedom to select the members?
Muhammad Yunus: I wouldn’t say ‘full’, for it was done instantly, without much thought about it. I was told that such and such people were available and I chose among them. Didn’t care who was doing what.
New Age: Did any advice or recommendation come from those sectors, like the armed forces or political parties, in choosing the members of the cabinet?
Muhammad Yunus: No. No, no. I was told that these were the people available and I was to pick people out of them. The members of the cabinet were to take oath the day after. So, I was to choose instantly.
New Age: Are you aware, or may I say that you must have received information from various intelligence and other sources, of the public perception that you have chosen those for your cabinet who are involved with the NGOs? Besides, allegations have it that you have preferred people coming from your own district, Chittagong. Then, again, you have picked up some people who always kept distance from any democratic movement. Moreover, criticism has it that most people you have chosen lack experience in running the statecraft and, therefore, they are failing to deliver.
Muhammad Yunus: Yes, I know. Everyone is discussing these all the time. There is no reason not to know it.
New Age: What is your take on the criticism?
Muhammad Yunus: Nothing to be embarrassed about it. They [cabinet members] have come from different backgrounds, without having any experience [of governance]. I myself have no such experience. I have been given the responsibility of governing the country, but I did not have an iota of experience of it. How can I blame others? If I can do my job, I am confident that they would also be able to do theirs.
New Age: Are you happy about their performance?
Muhammad Yunus: Ask me about my own performance! What would I say about theirs? [Laughter]
New Age: Are you happy about your performance?
Muhammad Yunus: No, what I mean is that we don’t have the required quality. We do things according to our abilities. If it works, that is okay. If it doesn’t, it would be our misfortune.
New Age: Do you think that you have adequate communication and understanding with the political parties in discharging your duties? It appears to us that there is some distance between the two sides.
Muhammad Yunus: I find an unbelievable amount of understanding between all political parties concerned. When they come together, I get surprised to see how sincerely they talk to each other. It’s so encouraging. It is really baffling to see, as reported in the media, how they speak against each other outside. Again, when the political parties come to me alone, without others, I get overwhelmed by the level of sincerity they talk to me and the amount of support they express [to my government]. So, there is no lack of understanding between the government and the political parties. I really get overwhelmed and think as to why the country is not moving [towards the right direction] despite such a huge amount of support.
New Age: Why do you think the politicians behave differently in different places?
Muhammad Yunus: This has, perhaps, become the norm of political practices in the country which has developed over time. The politicians, perhaps, believe that they would not be acceptable [to their respective constituencies] if they behaved differently. However, whenever they talk at the personal level, they are different people. The sincerity and closeness in their relations are overwhelming.
New Age: To digress a little, your cabinet decided, and later announced, in October this year that the state would provide Tk 30 lakh for each family of the martyrs of the July-August movement. Then, again, the July Foundation, constituted to help the martyrs of and the injured in the movement, announced that it would provide Tk 5 lakh each to the families of martyrs and Tk 1 lakh each to those who became injured in the student-mass uprising. The promises are yet to be fulfilled. Why?
Muhammad Yunus: Hmm…
New Age. Meanwhile, the government has provided thousands of crores for those banks that were affected by the looters of the previous regime. Why didn’t the martyrs and injured of the mass uprising get the priority?
Muhammad Yunus: There was the priority and that was why the announcement was made. But it couldn’t be materialised yet, because of the internal systemic weakness of the state.
New Age: Bureaucratic tangles?
Muhammad Yunus: Yes, bureaucratic tangles. Which sources the fund would go from, how and which department the money would go to, how the money would be disbursed, et cetera. The money is there, the commitment is there and there is no doubt about the disbursement of the money. They would get the promised money, and that too, as much as they need in their lifetime. The commitment is there while there is no lack of money to meet the commitment.
New Age: But there is an immediacy about the matter. How much time could it take to provide the money?
Muhammad Yunus: I am afraid to project anything these days, because eventually I can’t do it on time.
New Age: People at large trust your words and sincerity. The issue must take priority over other things. Don’t you think that bureaucratic failures are affecting the image of your government?
Muhammad Yunus: I wouldn’t just blame bureaucracy. It has its own rules, which we, perhaps, don’t understand. We all are responsible.
New Age: So, no timeline for the disbursement of the money for the martyrs’ family and the injured?
Muhammad Yunus: As early as possible. I don’t want to get embarrassed by giving a timeline.
New Age: Your government’s programmes of democratic reforms and holding general elections are recently being projected by certain quarters as two contradictory issues, instead of being considered complementary to each other. Are you concerned about the phenomenon?
Muhammad Yunus: I don’t find any scope for contradiction. The process of reforms is there. Six commissions were set up to propose recommendations and they have, meanwhile, consulted with many people on their respective issues. The reports of the commissions are expected to come by January 7. Then, another commission, composed of the heads of the six commissions, with myself being the chairman and Professor Ali Reaz vice-chairman, will initiate a subjet-wise wider consensus-building process. I believe that through the wider dialogue with all concerned, it would be possible to reach a consensus on some issues and it would be easier for us to go ahead with the implementation of the reforms.
New Age: May we expect the dialogue to begin in mid-January?
Muhammad Yunus: Hopefully, yes.
New Age: Does your government have any reform programme of its own? The proposals are coming from outside the government.
Muhammad Yunus: The reform agenda to be adopted through wider dialogue and broader consensus is our programme. We are not a political party. So, we do not have any homogenous position on the issues concerned. Different members of the cabinet may have different political convictions. If any individual cabinet member has any reform proposal, s/he has to go to the commission concerned, for the commission is the body to collect opinions from others. The proposals coming from the commissions are the government’s proposals, which we will discuss with the stakeholders to reach a consensus on.
New Age: Is there any acute level of differences of opinion on the reform issues among your cabinet members?
Muhammad Yunus: No, I haven’t seen yet. Maybe, the differences of opinion would emerge when the discussion on the reform proposals would start.
New Age: That’s your assumption?
Muhammad Yunus: Yes. Not that everybody will agree on everything, but in the end, we would go with the consensus opinion. For instance, while explaining how we would forge a consensus on various issues, I said, say, I believe the age of eligibility for being a voter should be 17. That’s my opinion. Now, if others do not agree with me, I would accept their opinion. This is how we want to proceed with the consensus-building process. Some people thought that we were imposing the eligibility of voting age on people, but I just gave an example of how we would forge the consensus.
New Age: Does it mean that there is no such government decision on this issue?
Muhammad Yunus: Right.
New Age: It clearly appears that a section of the students, who led the victorious mass uprising, is now set to launch a political party of their own and wants to take time for general elections (in order to implement certain reform programmes). But the existing political parties, on the other hand, argue that side by side with the reform process, elections should be held earlier. Have you noticed that the public debates on the issue by the two sides have already become quite bitter?
Muhammad Yunus: Yes, I have definitely noticed this.
New Age: Isn’t it a matter of concern?
Muhammad Yunus. Not at all.
New Age: Why?
Muhammad Yunus: Because, as I already said, they appear one way in public and quite different in private.
New Age: So, you believe that they would eventually be of the same opinion?
Muhammad Yunus: Yes, I do.
New Age: But it is said that the youths in question, who definitely want reforms, prefer delaying the electoral process by a few years, primarily because they need time to organise their party, build up their electoral constituencies and select the candidates. The major political parties, on the other hand, are reluctant about a delayed election for a group of youths to have adequate time to organise their party. Do you see any problem in the two diametrically opposite stances on the timing of elections?
Muhammad Yunus: Well, I have already announced the timeline for holding elections — either this one [late 2025] or that one [by mid-2026].
New Age: But the political parties want a ‘more specific’ timeline.
Muhammad Yunus: That is there. I clearly said, let the process begin. If such and such things take place, then the second one and if they don’t happen, the first one. In fact, they also understand this. Still, they keep repeating the demand for specific dates to ensure that we do not go beyond the stipulated timeline.
New Age: To keep the government under pressure?
Muhammad Yunus: Yes.
New Age: So, those who are kept under pressure also understand as to why they are kept under pressure!
Muhammad Yunus: Definitely, we understand. And, we want to be under pressure. There may be different opinions among ourselves. One may say, well, that it would take five years for the reforms. The timeline is there so that none can say things like this. Whatever is to be done has to be done within the stipulated time.
New Age: Some young members of your cabinet have recently made some controversial public statements on this issue which could create mistrust in the political parties about the government. Have you talked with your cabinet members about it?
Muhammad Yunus: We continuously talk and we have a mechanism for that.
New Age: What about the misunderstanding…?
Muhammad Yunus: Yes, misunderstanding takes place. Even misunderstanding happens among ourselves. They tell one thing to mean another, particularly in front of journalists. In fact, we are not used to talking to the press. So, it gets messed up at times. Later, they say that they did not say that or not the way it appeared. Nevertheless, there is no lack of consensus among us on the issues that we talk about.
New Age: While addressing the nation last [December 16, 2024], you admitted that your government could not achieve the desired level of success in controlling commodity prices and keeping law and order. Meanwhile, two weeks have passed. Have you taken any new/special steps to address the phenomena?
Muhammad Yunus: We are trying every day. These are not new problems — law and order and commodity prices. We are trying to do everything possible to address the commodity price issue.
New Age: Any specific steps?
Muhamamd Yunus: For instance, a meticulous monitoring of commodity prices at different markets. We watch as to why the price of a certain commodity is increasing at one market while it is falling at another…
New Age: Well, that is an analysis, but what actions has the government taken so far, based on those analyses?
Muhammad Yunus: Actions. Say, facilitating truck services, if needed, for the transport of goods from one place to another to keep an uninterrupted supply of commodities to different markets across the country, trying to control extortions at different places and markets, et cetera.
New Age: Along with other things, extortion of traders on highways, bus/truck/launch stations, and at marketplaces substantially contributes to the disproportionate degree of price increase. The press regularly reports, the police know and the government also knows that with the fall of the previous government, the extortionists of one political camp have been replaced with those of the other. But extortionists are not being arrested.
Muhammad Yunus: I don’t know whether or not such arrests have been made.
New Age: The extortionists are usually linked to organised political parties and groups. Are you reluctant to dissatisfy the political parties?
Muhammad Yunus: The whole country is getting dissatisfied. Then, there can be no problem to dissatisfy the political parties, when it is lawful.
New Age: But we haven’t seen anyone important getting arrested for committing such crimes. How do you explain this phenomenon, sir?
Muhammad Yunus: They have to be arrested. They cannot be left at large.
New Age: Everybody is seeing extortionists on the roads and highway, at marketplaces and at bus terminals. Why can the government not see them?
Muhammad Yunus: The eyesight of the government is not adequately clear.
New Age: Do you think that more and more media reports on the issue would help to clear the government’s eye-vision a little?
Muhammad Yunus: The more is reported, the better.
New Age: Tons of money has reportedly been siphoned off the country during the Awami League regime and you have taken an initiative to get the money back to Bangladesh. Are you optimistic about it?
Muhammad Yunus: I am hopeful. At least part of the plundered money could be recovered although I don’t know how much time it would take. This is, indeed, a difficult process, but the experts say it is possible to recover the siphoned of money. However, it would be easy to recover the money sent abroad through banking channels, but the suitcaseful of money taken away cannot be recovered any more.
New Age: To turn to the relations with India, all of us here know that India, particularly its media, is terming Bangladesh’s newly developed hopes and aspirations, generated out of a change of guards through a bloodied people’s uprising, as terrorist activities of sorts. Bangladeshi media are trying to refute those allegations in their own limited way. But, at the level of functional diplomacy, has your government been able to make any progress in developing a sound working relation?
Muhammad Yunus: We are trying. We have informed them at different levels of the real situation of the country. When Indian prime minister Mr Narendra Modi called me and alleged that the religious minority community was being persecuted here in Bangladesh, I told him that the narrative was an exaggerated one and that if he was interested to know of the real situation, he should send Indian journalists to our country to see for themselves. Subsequently, Indian journalists came and reported on the ground realities. There are, however, some [Indian] narratives that are not only exaggerated but also completely cock-and-bull stories, which would perhaps continue to circulate even if we prove them wrong. Perhaps, nothing can be done with such exercises.
Later, when the Indian foreign affairs secretary came to visit us, we called his attention to the Indian adverse propaganda about Bangladesh. He, however, said that it was the media issue and the Indian government has no connection with those things.
Meantime, many international journalists have visited Bangladesh and published many reports on the real situation, which has helped to remove the misgivings to a large extent. They [Indians] propagated earlier that an Islamist/Taliban takeover has taken place here. After reports on the international media, that propaganda has proved futile.
New Age: Do you find any hostilities from the side of the Indian state?
Muhammad Yunus: No, there are no hostilities from the [Indian] state. As I said, it clearly told me that the stance of the Indian media is not reflective of that of the Indian government. I told them that we need close relations, but it has been clouded at the moment while we need to remove the cloud around the relation. They agreed.
New Age: Your government has requested, through an official letter, to extradite former prime minister Sheikh Hasina, [now in India], in order to try her on charges of crimes against humanity. When do you expect an Indian response?
Muhammad Yunus: I have no idea about it. I do not know how much time it takes to have a reply in such matters.
New Age: Your foreign ministry must have…
Muhammad Yunus: No, I haven’t asked yet. We have started a process. We would wait to see how much time it takes for an [Indian] response. We will follow it up.
New Age: When do you think your government would take follow-up steps, meaning, would write another letter to the Indians?
Muhammad Yunus: Well, say, after a month.
New Age: You have, meanwhile, proposed an effective revival of SAARC (South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation). Are you getting any response?
Muhammad Yunus: The issue comes out during talks with other SAARC countries. They also want an active SAARC. But India is not responding seriously. Indians explain that they have problems about Pakistan. I usually say that we should not keep the organisation inactive for that one reason. We can try to resolve that problem, too. Or, we can even try together to further improve the relations among the rest of the SAARC countries, looking at that problem differently. But India has not responded yet.
New Age: May we look to the west? There is a public perception here that you have good relations with the west. Now that the government in the United States has changed and the new president, Donald Trump, has friendship with him (Modi) and he reportedly would have some seven members of Indian origin in his cabinet, do you apprehend that the phenomenon would affect Bangladesh’s bilateral relations with the States?
Muhammad Yunus: Quite possible. Given the closeness of relations [between Trump and Modi] and the seven people of Indian origin in the cabinet, our relations may be influenced to some extent. Some symptoms have already appeared. Nevertheless, we are watching what direction it eventually takes. Not necessarily that Americans of Indian origin would remain biased for India. We have to try to find people there who would be sympathetic to us. We had a good relationship with the past government. We have to try to forge equally good relations with the new one. For that to happen, we have to try both at the diplomatic channel and beyond. We are trying.
New Age: It seems that our time for the interview is over. I am already warned by your staff. May I ask you what you plan to do after your present assignment is over?
Muhammad Yunus: As I have already said, this is a temporary responsibility for me. As soon as I finish this, I will return to my old world of joy.
New Age: Any plan to write a book on this experience of heading a transitional government?
Muhammad Yunus: No, I haven’t thought about it. You just reminded me of writing book. Presently, I am just struggling to somehow pass the time by days. [laughter]
New Age: Thanks a lot for your time.
Muhammad Yunus: Thank you, too.
Nurul Kabir and Monwarul Islam 04 January, 2025, 00:00
Chief adviser Muhammad Yunus, right, speaks to New Age editor Nurul Kabir at chief adviser’s official residence in Dhaka on December 29. | Courtesy: Parvez Ahmad/Drik
The interim government will start a subject-wise wider dialogue with political parties and other sections of society in mid-January this year to reach a broader consensus on the reforms agenda and will hold general elections in the stipulated time (late this year or by mid-2026), says Professor Muhammad Yunus, chief adviser to the interim government, in an exclusive interview with New Age on December 29, 2024, taken in Bangla at his official residence in Dhaka by Nurul Kabir, the editor, along with Monwarul Islam, assistant editor, of the newspaper.
New Age: You are known for being very efficient in evading questions, but we want to have a very sincere conversation (on the issues of national concerns) today.
Professor Muhammad Yunus: (Laughter) I will definitely talk with an open mind.
New Age: Would you, please, tell us the differences in feelings and experiences that you find between the four months of your life before the fall of Sheikh Hasina’s autocratic regime on August 5 this year and the four months that you have been running affairs of the state since then? Which phase is bad and which one is good?
Muhammad Yunus: Well, no phase is bad. But, of course, it’s two different kinds of worlds, different kinds of experiences. Before taking up the present responsibility, I was busy with my own world, my private world and was happy with what I was doing. There were certain debates and arguments around my work those days, but I handled those things my own way. But the new responsibility that I have taken up [on August 8 this year] is a totally different world altogether. When the student leaders, none of whom I ever knew, requested me on August 5 to head the Interim Government, I was quite hesitant whether or not I should take up a responsibility of something that I have no experience of whatsoever. Then, on their insistence that I should take the responsibility, I thought that so much blood has been shed and so many lives have been sacrificed, I should agree and, therefore, agreed to take the responsibility. So, I am here. This is a different world and there are many challenges. Let’s see what can be done.
New Age: Well, if the new phase hadn’t come about on August 5, you might have landed in jail. Right?
Muhammad Yunus: Yes, it could have been so. I was in a different country at the time and given what I saw when I left the country in the midst of a curfew, I was thinking those days about which country I should move to so that I won’t have to return to land in jail.
New Age: After you had taken over on August 8, the court cases relating to certain allegations that the government of Sheikh Hasina brought against you got quashed. Don’t you think that people might have reason to believe that your present position contributed to the acquittal?
Muhammad Yunus: I think that the cases would have gone anyway, no matter if I were at home or abroad, in power or not, for the allegations were baseless. My lawyers would have successfully been able to legally pursue the court that the cases against me did not have any merit. So, whether or not I had been here [in power], I would have been acquitted of the charges.
New Age: Does that mean that the court would have been fair to you even if there had been no regime change? There were, and still are, allegations that courts during the previous regime were being influenced by the government. Still, you believe that you would have been acquitted if the old regime had still continued?
Muhammad Yunus: No, they did not acquit me those days. If they were still in power, I definitely would have been sent to jail. Every time I went to the court, I thought I could enter the jail today and I, along with some other accused in the cases concerned, was mentally prepared for that. I took it easily and thought it to be a fait accompli. Now that the victors of the student-mass uprising are to stand for justice, I would be acquitted irrespective of my position or location.
New Age: You just said that you were hesitant to take the responsibility of running affairs of state as it is a different world that involves politics and you did not have any political experience. But you took the initiative of launching a political party in 2007. If you continued with the initiative, you would have to take political responsibilities.
Muhammad Yunus: There were no [functional] political parties in the country those days while my friends, associates and well-wishers started persuading me to launch a party, arguing that none else could take such an initiative at that time. Eventually, in the face of intense persuasion, I reluctantly decided to do so, but I didn’t have any long-term plan to do politics and go to power. However, while responding to the curious journalists at an airport, I told them that I would launch a party. Then, a name was of the party selected, Nagarik Shakti (Citizens’ Power), and as the process was going ahead, public opinions on the issue were also solicited. But, some 10 weeks into the process, I started feeling that I was getting deep into politics which I was not liking from within and I started trying to distance myself from the process. Finally, I suddenly announced that I was not going to form any political party. In fact, I didn’t have any plan to advance the political initiative to go to power.
New Age: Did you consult your ‘friends, associates and well-wishers’ concerned before announcing that you were no longer interested in politics?
Muhammad Yunus: No, I didn’t. Everybody got very surprised.
New Age: They were supposed to get upset by your unilateral announcement.
Muhammad Yunus: Yes, they got very upset as they, after doing so many things for the proposed party, had not even informed of my decision to dissolve the process before it was made public.
New Age: Are they now happy [that you are in power]?
Muhammad Yunus: They do not even come near me, possibly in the fear as to where I would lead them to again. [Laughter]
New Age: Is there any connection, in terms of thoughts and ideas, between your defunct party, Nagarik Shakti, and the Nagarik Committee that a section of the victorious students has recently constituted?
Muhammad Yunus: Nothing, except the common word Nagarik that they have adopted. They have not discussed anything about it with me.
New Age: You have claimed more than once at different fora, national and international, that the ‘students have appointed me’ to the position of the chief adviser of the Interim Government. Then, if the students who have fought together for a common immediate cause — the overthrow of an autocratic government — now get divided into different groups along their respective political lines, don’t you think that your mandate would be questioned?
Muhammad Yunus: Well, we have at the moment an ‘interim government’, of which I am a part, while theirs is politics. For how many days I have been in this government is one thing and what they are doing and what would be the consequences of their political exercise is another. They, as citizens, are to think what they have to do. I, as [head of the] government, am doing my part as much as possible.
New Age: You are functioning as a government, as you say, by the mandate given by the students. This means that the source of your mandate is a united student community. Now, if the students get divided along political lines, your mandate…
Muhammad Yunus: Would be weakened. Definitely, would be weakened.
New Age. Do you see any such possibility?
Muhammad Yunus: Possibilities are always there. Nevertheless, if one [factor] gets weakened, another would get stronger. One factor would add to the other.
New Age: Well, people like us who are outside the power process have observed that the students have invited you to take over power while the armed forces have endorsed the idea and the organised political forces that are power contenders have promised their support for you. When you often claim that the students providing leadership for the victorious mass uprising have appointed you to the position of the chief adviser, don’t you think that the two other forces — military and political — might be upset about it?
Muhammad Yunus: Quite possible. But the fact remains that it was the student leaders who have invited me to the position. So, I have said that the students have said that the students have appointed me. And that all concerned have supported me remains a larger issue. But I did not say this to hurt or upset others. Nothing like that.
New Age: As you know, sir, there are things called power blocs while all the three organised forces are important for you, the existence of your government. Aren’t they?
Muhammad Yunus: Definitely.
New Age: The name of the position that you are now holding, the nomenclature of the position, is the ‘chief adviser.’ Why did you agree to this idea? Who do you advise?
Muhammad Yunus: This didn’t come across my mind. I was told to take the responsibility and I took it.
New Age: Adviser cannot be the nomenclature of an executive position. An ‘adviser’ is s/he who advises someone else.
Muhammad Yunus: I didn’t go deep into the issue. I was requested to take the responsibility of the government. I took it. I was told that in such a [political] situation, the name of such a position happens to be like this.
New Age: Well, again, the chief adviser is the chief of other advisers. All of them are advisers. The question is: whom to advise?
Muhammad Yunus: I didn’t think about it.
New Age: While forming your cabinet, did you have the full freedom to select the members?
Muhammad Yunus: I wouldn’t say ‘full’, for it was done instantly, without much thought about it. I was told that such and such people were available and I chose among them. Didn’t care who was doing what.
New Age: Did any advice or recommendation come from those sectors, like the armed forces or political parties, in choosing the members of the cabinet?
Muhammad Yunus: No. No, no. I was told that these were the people available and I was to pick people out of them. The members of the cabinet were to take oath the day after. So, I was to choose instantly.
New Age: Are you aware, or may I say that you must have received information from various intelligence and other sources, of the public perception that you have chosen those for your cabinet who are involved with the NGOs? Besides, allegations have it that you have preferred people coming from your own district, Chittagong. Then, again, you have picked up some people who always kept distance from any democratic movement. Moreover, criticism has it that most people you have chosen lack experience in running the statecraft and, therefore, they are failing to deliver.
Muhammad Yunus: Yes, I know. Everyone is discussing these all the time. There is no reason not to know it.
New Age: What is your take on the criticism?
Muhammad Yunus: Nothing to be embarrassed about it. They [cabinet members] have come from different backgrounds, without having any experience [of governance]. I myself have no such experience. I have been given the responsibility of governing the country, but I did not have an iota of experience of it. How can I blame others? If I can do my job, I am confident that they would also be able to do theirs.
New Age: Are you happy about their performance?
Muhammad Yunus: Ask me about my own performance! What would I say about theirs? [Laughter]
New Age: Are you happy about your performance?
Muhammad Yunus: No, what I mean is that we don’t have the required quality. We do things according to our abilities. If it works, that is okay. If it doesn’t, it would be our misfortune.
New Age: Do you think that you have adequate communication and understanding with the political parties in discharging your duties? It appears to us that there is some distance between the two sides.
Muhammad Yunus: I find an unbelievable amount of understanding between all political parties concerned. When they come together, I get surprised to see how sincerely they talk to each other. It’s so encouraging. It is really baffling to see, as reported in the media, how they speak against each other outside. Again, when the political parties come to me alone, without others, I get overwhelmed by the level of sincerity they talk to me and the amount of support they express [to my government]. So, there is no lack of understanding between the government and the political parties. I really get overwhelmed and think as to why the country is not moving [towards the right direction] despite such a huge amount of support.
New Age: Why do you think the politicians behave differently in different places?
Muhammad Yunus: This has, perhaps, become the norm of political practices in the country which has developed over time. The politicians, perhaps, believe that they would not be acceptable [to their respective constituencies] if they behaved differently. However, whenever they talk at the personal level, they are different people. The sincerity and closeness in their relations are overwhelming.
New Age: To digress a little, your cabinet decided, and later announced, in October this year that the state would provide Tk 30 lakh for each family of the martyrs of the July-August movement. Then, again, the July Foundation, constituted to help the martyrs of and the injured in the movement, announced that it would provide Tk 5 lakh each to the families of martyrs and Tk 1 lakh each to those who became injured in the student-mass uprising. The promises are yet to be fulfilled. Why?
Muhammad Yunus: Hmm…
New Age. Meanwhile, the government has provided thousands of crores for those banks that were affected by the looters of the previous regime. Why didn’t the martyrs and injured of the mass uprising get the priority?
Muhammad Yunus: There was the priority and that was why the announcement was made. But it couldn’t be materialised yet, because of the internal systemic weakness of the state.
New Age: Bureaucratic tangles?
Muhammad Yunus: Yes, bureaucratic tangles. Which sources the fund would go from, how and which department the money would go to, how the money would be disbursed, et cetera. The money is there, the commitment is there and there is no doubt about the disbursement of the money. They would get the promised money, and that too, as much as they need in their lifetime. The commitment is there while there is no lack of money to meet the commitment.
New Age: But there is an immediacy about the matter. How much time could it take to provide the money?
Muhammad Yunus: I am afraid to project anything these days, because eventually I can’t do it on time.
New Age: People at large trust your words and sincerity. The issue must take priority over other things. Don’t you think that bureaucratic failures are affecting the image of your government?
Muhammad Yunus: I wouldn’t just blame bureaucracy. It has its own rules, which we, perhaps, don’t understand. We all are responsible.
New Age: So, no timeline for the disbursement of the money for the martyrs’ family and the injured?
Muhammad Yunus: As early as possible. I don’t want to get embarrassed by giving a timeline.
New Age: Your government’s programmes of democratic reforms and holding general elections are recently being projected by certain quarters as two contradictory issues, instead of being considered complementary to each other. Are you concerned about the phenomenon?
Muhammad Yunus: I don’t find any scope for contradiction. The process of reforms is there. Six commissions were set up to propose recommendations and they have, meanwhile, consulted with many people on their respective issues. The reports of the commissions are expected to come by January 7. Then, another commission, composed of the heads of the six commissions, with myself being the chairman and Professor Ali Reaz vice-chairman, will initiate a subjet-wise wider consensus-building process. I believe that through the wider dialogue with all concerned, it would be possible to reach a consensus on some issues and it would be easier for us to go ahead with the implementation of the reforms.
New Age: May we expect the dialogue to begin in mid-January?
Muhammad Yunus: Hopefully, yes.
New Age: Does your government have any reform programme of its own? The proposals are coming from outside the government.
Muhammad Yunus: The reform agenda to be adopted through wider dialogue and broader consensus is our programme. We are not a political party. So, we do not have any homogenous position on the issues concerned. Different members of the cabinet may have different political convictions. If any individual cabinet member has any reform proposal, s/he has to go to the commission concerned, for the commission is the body to collect opinions from others. The proposals coming from the commissions are the government’s proposals, which we will discuss with the stakeholders to reach a consensus on.
New Age: Is there any acute level of differences of opinion on the reform issues among your cabinet members?
Muhammad Yunus: No, I haven’t seen yet. Maybe, the differences of opinion would emerge when the discussion on the reform proposals would start.
New Age: That’s your assumption?
Muhammad Yunus: Yes. Not that everybody will agree on everything, but in the end, we would go with the consensus opinion. For instance, while explaining how we would forge a consensus on various issues, I said, say, I believe the age of eligibility for being a voter should be 17. That’s my opinion. Now, if others do not agree with me, I would accept their opinion. This is how we want to proceed with the consensus-building process. Some people thought that we were imposing the eligibility of voting age on people, but I just gave an example of how we would forge the consensus.
New Age: Does it mean that there is no such government decision on this issue?
Muhammad Yunus: Right.
New Age: It clearly appears that a section of the students, who led the victorious mass uprising, is now set to launch a political party of their own and wants to take time for general elections (in order to implement certain reform programmes). But the existing political parties, on the other hand, argue that side by side with the reform process, elections should be held earlier. Have you noticed that the public debates on the issue by the two sides have already become quite bitter?
Muhammad Yunus: Yes, I have definitely noticed this.
New Age: Isn’t it a matter of concern?
Muhammad Yunus. Not at all.
New Age: Why?
Muhammad Yunus: Because, as I already said, they appear one way in public and quite different in private.
New Age: So, you believe that they would eventually be of the same opinion?
Muhammad Yunus: Yes, I do.
New Age: But it is said that the youths in question, who definitely want reforms, prefer delaying the electoral process by a few years, primarily because they need time to organise their party, build up their electoral constituencies and select the candidates. The major political parties, on the other hand, are reluctant about a delayed election for a group of youths to have adequate time to organise their party. Do you see any problem in the two diametrically opposite stances on the timing of elections?
Muhammad Yunus: Well, I have already announced the timeline for holding elections — either this one [late 2025] or that one [by mid-2026].
New Age: But the political parties want a ‘more specific’ timeline.
Muhammad Yunus: That is there. I clearly said, let the process begin. If such and such things take place, then the second one and if they don’t happen, the first one. In fact, they also understand this. Still, they keep repeating the demand for specific dates to ensure that we do not go beyond the stipulated timeline.
New Age: To keep the government under pressure?
Muhammad Yunus: Yes.
New Age: So, those who are kept under pressure also understand as to why they are kept under pressure!
Muhammad Yunus: Definitely, we understand. And, we want to be under pressure. There may be different opinions among ourselves. One may say, well, that it would take five years for the reforms. The timeline is there so that none can say things like this. Whatever is to be done has to be done within the stipulated time.
New Age: Some young members of your cabinet have recently made some controversial public statements on this issue which could create mistrust in the political parties about the government. Have you talked with your cabinet members about it?
Muhammad Yunus: We continuously talk and we have a mechanism for that.
New Age: What about the misunderstanding…?
Muhammad Yunus: Yes, misunderstanding takes place. Even misunderstanding happens among ourselves. They tell one thing to mean another, particularly in front of journalists. In fact, we are not used to talking to the press. So, it gets messed up at times. Later, they say that they did not say that or not the way it appeared. Nevertheless, there is no lack of consensus among us on the issues that we talk about.
New Age: While addressing the nation last [December 16, 2024], you admitted that your government could not achieve the desired level of success in controlling commodity prices and keeping law and order. Meanwhile, two weeks have passed. Have you taken any new/special steps to address the phenomena?
Muhammad Yunus: We are trying every day. These are not new problems — law and order and commodity prices. We are trying to do everything possible to address the commodity price issue.
New Age: Any specific steps?
Muhamamd Yunus: For instance, a meticulous monitoring of commodity prices at different markets. We watch as to why the price of a certain commodity is increasing at one market while it is falling at another…
New Age: Well, that is an analysis, but what actions has the government taken so far, based on those analyses?
Muhammad Yunus: Actions. Say, facilitating truck services, if needed, for the transport of goods from one place to another to keep an uninterrupted supply of commodities to different markets across the country, trying to control extortions at different places and markets, et cetera.
New Age: Along with other things, extortion of traders on highways, bus/truck/launch stations, and at marketplaces substantially contributes to the disproportionate degree of price increase. The press regularly reports, the police know and the government also knows that with the fall of the previous government, the extortionists of one political camp have been replaced with those of the other. But extortionists are not being arrested.
Muhammad Yunus: I don’t know whether or not such arrests have been made.
New Age: The extortionists are usually linked to organised political parties and groups. Are you reluctant to dissatisfy the political parties?
Muhammad Yunus: The whole country is getting dissatisfied. Then, there can be no problem to dissatisfy the political parties, when it is lawful.
New Age: But we haven’t seen anyone important getting arrested for committing such crimes. How do you explain this phenomenon, sir?
Muhammad Yunus: They have to be arrested. They cannot be left at large.
New Age: Everybody is seeing extortionists on the roads and highway, at marketplaces and at bus terminals. Why can the government not see them?
Muhammad Yunus: The eyesight of the government is not adequately clear.
New Age: Do you think that more and more media reports on the issue would help to clear the government’s eye-vision a little?
Muhammad Yunus: The more is reported, the better.
New Age: Tons of money has reportedly been siphoned off the country during the Awami League regime and you have taken an initiative to get the money back to Bangladesh. Are you optimistic about it?
Muhammad Yunus: I am hopeful. At least part of the plundered money could be recovered although I don’t know how much time it would take. This is, indeed, a difficult process, but the experts say it is possible to recover the siphoned of money. However, it would be easy to recover the money sent abroad through banking channels, but the suitcaseful of money taken away cannot be recovered any more.
New Age: To turn to the relations with India, all of us here know that India, particularly its media, is terming Bangladesh’s newly developed hopes and aspirations, generated out of a change of guards through a bloodied people’s uprising, as terrorist activities of sorts. Bangladeshi media are trying to refute those allegations in their own limited way. But, at the level of functional diplomacy, has your government been able to make any progress in developing a sound working relation?
Muhammad Yunus: We are trying. We have informed them at different levels of the real situation of the country. When Indian prime minister Mr Narendra Modi called me and alleged that the religious minority community was being persecuted here in Bangladesh, I told him that the narrative was an exaggerated one and that if he was interested to know of the real situation, he should send Indian journalists to our country to see for themselves. Subsequently, Indian journalists came and reported on the ground realities. There are, however, some [Indian] narratives that are not only exaggerated but also completely cock-and-bull stories, which would perhaps continue to circulate even if we prove them wrong. Perhaps, nothing can be done with such exercises.
Later, when the Indian foreign affairs secretary came to visit us, we called his attention to the Indian adverse propaganda about Bangladesh. He, however, said that it was the media issue and the Indian government has no connection with those things.
Meantime, many international journalists have visited Bangladesh and published many reports on the real situation, which has helped to remove the misgivings to a large extent. They [Indians] propagated earlier that an Islamist/Taliban takeover has taken place here. After reports on the international media, that propaganda has proved futile.
New Age: Do you find any hostilities from the side of the Indian state?
Muhammad Yunus: No, there are no hostilities from the [Indian] state. As I said, it clearly told me that the stance of the Indian media is not reflective of that of the Indian government. I told them that we need close relations, but it has been clouded at the moment while we need to remove the cloud around the relation. They agreed.
New Age: Your government has requested, through an official letter, to extradite former prime minister Sheikh Hasina, [now in India], in order to try her on charges of crimes against humanity. When do you expect an Indian response?
Muhammad Yunus: I have no idea about it. I do not know how much time it takes to have a reply in such matters.
New Age: Your foreign ministry must have…
Muhammad Yunus: No, I haven’t asked yet. We have started a process. We would wait to see how much time it takes for an [Indian] response. We will follow it up.
New Age: When do you think your government would take follow-up steps, meaning, would write another letter to the Indians?
Muhammad Yunus: Well, say, after a month.
New Age: You have, meanwhile, proposed an effective revival of SAARC (South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation). Are you getting any response?
Muhammad Yunus: The issue comes out during talks with other SAARC countries. They also want an active SAARC. But India is not responding seriously. Indians explain that they have problems about Pakistan. I usually say that we should not keep the organisation inactive for that one reason. We can try to resolve that problem, too. Or, we can even try together to further improve the relations among the rest of the SAARC countries, looking at that problem differently. But India has not responded yet.
New Age: May we look to the west? There is a public perception here that you have good relations with the west. Now that the government in the United States has changed and the new president, Donald Trump, has friendship with him (Modi) and he reportedly would have some seven members of Indian origin in his cabinet, do you apprehend that the phenomenon would affect Bangladesh’s bilateral relations with the States?
Muhammad Yunus: Quite possible. Given the closeness of relations [between Trump and Modi] and the seven people of Indian origin in the cabinet, our relations may be influenced to some extent. Some symptoms have already appeared. Nevertheless, we are watching what direction it eventually takes. Not necessarily that Americans of Indian origin would remain biased for India. We have to try to find people there who would be sympathetic to us. We had a good relationship with the past government. We have to try to forge equally good relations with the new one. For that to happen, we have to try both at the diplomatic channel and beyond. We are trying.
New Age: It seems that our time for the interview is over. I am already warned by your staff. May I ask you what you plan to do after your present assignment is over?
Muhammad Yunus: As I have already said, this is a temporary responsibility for me. As soon as I finish this, I will return to my old world of joy.
New Age: Any plan to write a book on this experience of heading a transitional government?
Muhammad Yunus: No, I haven’t thought about it. You just reminded me of writing book. Presently, I am just struggling to somehow pass the time by days. [laughter]
New Age: Thanks a lot for your time.
Muhammad Yunus: Thank you, too.
