Saif
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Unite for reforms, this chance wonât come again
We don't want flimsy reforms. We don't want eye-wash reforms. We want fundamental reforms. We will bring about these reforms in such a manner that they cannot be changed

Interview: Dr Muhammad Yunus (Part 2)
Unite for reforms, this chance wonât come again
Dr. Muhammad Yunus during an interview with Prothom Alo editor Matiur Rahman
After the student-people uprising, Nobel laureate Professor Dr. Muhammad Yunus took over responsibility as chief advisor of Bangladeshâs interim government. At the request of the students, he took up this responsibility at a time of unprecedented political change. In an interview with Prothom Aloâs editor Matiur Rahman and diplomatic correspondent Raheed Ejaz, this eminent economist spoke at length on peopleâs dreams for a new Bangladesh, materialising these dreams through reforms in certain important sectors, a transition to democracy, and the prevailing state of affairs.
Prothom Alo : Everyone wants justice regarding all the killings that took place during the student-peopleâs movement. There is also all sorts of talk about trials in this connection. You yourself have also several times said that Sheikh Hasina will be placed on trial. She is presently in India. There is talk of asking for extradition. Do you have plans in this regard?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: We don't need to be a part of this. We are reforming the judicial system. Once the judicial system is reformed, then the issues will come forward, about who will be placed on trial, how justice will be carried out, who will carry out justice, and so on. We are not taking political decisions now. We are just creating the scope. Then you will proceed as you deem befitting. We are just facilitating.
Prothom Alo: But there was a government, a head of government, a cabinet, leaders behind all this injustice and wrongdoings. There are discussions and demands about themâŠ
Dr Muhammad Yunus: That is why they are being caught and arrested, taken to jail. Everything is being done. But we are not placing them on trial. First decide the process on how justice will be brought about and then follow that judicial process.
Prothom Alo : There has been considerable criticism about these arrests and cases. How far are the charges true, or how far can these charges be proven? How far can these cases take the trials ahead? These questions are popping up. Many say that this is just the same as in the past. Like the false cases. And the liability is falling upon you all. You are not being able to shrug off this liability.
Dr Muhammad Yunus: That is why judicial reforms are required. It is not as if it can be done just if I say so. That wonât be justice. There are laws for this, but the laws are not good. The laws need to be changed. If we simply made a declaration unilaterally, then we will be going towards autocracy again. We want to advance through a process. It is not as there are no errors in the judicial process. Mistakes are being made. When these mistakes are pointed out, we try to rectify them. You say we change decisions. If our mistakes are pointed out, we then change our decisions accordingly.
If we simply made a declaration unilaterally, then we will be going towards autocracy again
Prothom Alo : In the meantime we see conflict and hatred being spread in the society. There is the matter of mob justice. Many people have even died in such incidents. There is a sort of unrest prevailing. How will you control this?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: This is all about establishing law and order. These are matters of the law and order situation. These are not political matters. The killings and the mob justice are all matters of law and order. If law and order can be strengthened, this will not happen. If we step up social activities, if people take care of each other, then such things wonât happen. The government canât go and stop the fights. We can say that you will be punished if you fight.
I am repeatedly saying, we are a family. We may have different views, but that doesnât mean we are enemies. This must be made clear.
Prothom Alo : There is a demand looming large to ban Awami League, not to allow them to carry out political activities, not to allow them to join the election. What will you say about that?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: This too is not for us to decide upon. When the political parties sit and hold meetings, they will take a decision. We will take all political decisions from the political parties. We will act in accordance with their decisions.
Prothom Alo: But you will have a certain stand. Will that come through the commission?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: If the commission deems it will be beneficial for the country, this will be discussed when the matter of elections arise. In other words, that will be placed with the political parties too. They will draw up a draft. It is not that the commission will do it and that is final. The recommendations of the commission will go to the political parties. The political parties will debate among themselves, will discuss and deliberate and decide in which direction we will proceed.
Prothom Alo: Freedom of expression and media freedom are all much-discussed issues. These were impaired in various ways during the last government and before that too. We have faced repression in all sorts of ways. How can you reassure us that in the future press freedom, telling the truth, freedom of expression will continue unhindered?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: You have been able to enter the prime ministerâs office after 15 years. The government did not allow you to do so in these 15 years. Approaching the government was like crossing the Himalayas. But that has been crossed now. There are no obstacles for you now. It is up to you when you want to come, when you want to go. We do not control this. I am not the one to dictate who will read Prothom Alo and who will not read Prothom Alo! I do not have the authority to dictate who will advertise in Prothom Alo and who will not advertise in Prothom Alo. Why will we have this authority! Write as you please. Criticise. Unless you write, how will we know what is happening or not happening? We arenât any know-all that everything is just happening smoothly. If you all speak out, we can be cautious.
Prothom Alo : Then again, there still is the manner of certain laws. There are rules and regulations. There are the old laws which are detrimental to freedom of expression.
Dr Muhammad Yunus: That is why we are talking about a media commission. The media commission will point out to us the laws that need to be changed or need to be abrogated. We are not fighting for any laws here. We have no interests involved. We want to ensure that future generations cannot accuse us of creating any obstacles.
Write as you please. Criticise. Unless you write, how will we know what is happening or not happening?
Prothom Alo : A question has been raised as to how long you all will remain at the helm. When will you hold the election? There was mention of one and a half years or two years. Have you had the chance to fix a specific timeline?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: We are discussing this matter among ourselves. Our work is clear cut. This work is preparing for the election. We must start this work. There will be a stream of preparations for the elections. Then there is the work for reforms. These will go hand in hand. These are not separate matters that we will complete one and start the other.
The election preparations will be about the election, when it will be held, what can be done, how far we will go and so on. Then there are reforms. Reforms are pivotal. This election is to establish reforms. So, when the preparations for the election are done, the reforms are organised but not executed, then the question will arise whether you will go for reforms or for the election. That is up to you all.
We will carry out the preparations. You will see how much time we are giving to these tasks. You will keep an eye on that. So it is not that we will set a deadline or that you will take whatever we can give within this time frame. It is about two preparations. If you say, hold the election, we are ready to hold the election. But it would be wrong to hold the election first.
We will proceed with the election and the reforms at the same speed. We will reach a point when the election preparations are complete. Then the election can be held on any date announced. We will ask whether we will announce the election date or proceed a little further. That is how the time will be fixed.
Prothom Alo : So does that mean the time frame for the election depends on the matter of reforms?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: To a greater extent. The entire matter depends on what you all want. What will I gain by announcing a date! Some may say that they have a design, that they want to stay in power for a long time! Just take a look at the advisorsâ faces. They all look confined, as if saying - let us go. Some say I won't be able to survive with my children. How can I pay for my sonâs overseas studies with the salary you pay? This is our predicament -- letâs finish up fast.
None of us are aiming at staying for a prolonged time. We want the tasks to be carried out accurately. That is our objective. What I am repeatedly saying is, this opportunity will not come in the life of this nation again. This opportunity is here now. Put this opportunity to the utmost use. Use us to get the work done so we can all say in unison that the opportunity arose and we grasped that opportunity. Let no one say, the opportunity arose, but we did not grasp it. Let no one be able to say, you failed.
India may be disheartened at certain incidents in Bangladesh. They were not pleased with the changes.
Prothom Alo: Our foreign policy is 'friendship towards all'. That is the policy we follow. Due to our country's geographical and geopolitical standing, we have to take up various stands with various countries. India is our closest neighbour. In very recent times, certain tensions have developed between the two countries. This is evident in their words, behaviour and approach. What steps do you think should be taken to change this situation, to normalise relations between the two countries and ensure that the relations are balanced?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: Relations between the two countries must be very close. There can be no alternative to this. They need this, we need this. This is essential from any angle, whether it's about economics, security or water. It will be difficult for us to move along without each other. It is only natural that we have close ties and good relations in every sphere. There should not be any feeling that anyone is pressuring the other. This is a relationship between two sovereign countries. We will always endeavour to ensure this.
India may be disheartened at certain incidents in Bangladesh. They were not pleased with the changes. Things will be clear to them when they see that the entire world is accepting us, how can they not accept us. Since they must forge good relations, it is not as if we are forcing them. This is necessary in their own interests. Just as we need them in our interests, they need us in their interests. So we have to forget certain transient matters. There is no use in mulling over who said what about each other, who made cutting remarks and so on. These are just words. The main thing is to maintain good relations. We have to use everything in our power to advance towards that.
I have spoken about SAARC, even this time. There was interest in this. The heads of government of SAARC countries held meetings with me. I held meetings with everyone except with India. Sri Lanka couldn't come because they only just got their president. I would have had a meeting with him too. So even if just for formalities sake, the SAARC countries took a picture together, indicating that we are together.
Prothom Alo : That means in foreign policy, you are placing importance on balanced relations between Bangladesh and India?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: It is about strengthening ties and at the same time, strengthening SAARC.
Prothom Alo : You have brought the issue of SAARC considerably forward. SAARC hasn't been functional for a decade now.
Dr Muhammad Yunus: I have been pursuing this since the creation of SAARC. I feel that this is our future. The European Union can move ahead so closely despite such historical divides, we do not have such a history of conflict. Why can't we be able to move ahead? If we were united, our prospects and opportunities would increase so much. We will have to come to SAARC. We are extending this appeal to everyone. Whoever I have met, all said that they want SAARC.
Prothom Alo : But isn't the main hindrance to SAARC India and Pakistan relations?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: That can be resolved. Just because there is a problem, that doesn't mean it has to be kept up. There is a solution to this. It can't be that we will keep SAARC but keep the problem brewing too. It is not that there has to be a final resolution to the problem. But we can more or less reach a solution so that SAARC can function. India can keep certain things suspended with Pakistan, but even then move forward. This will be a major policy that I will pursue.
Then there is ASEAN. We should get ASEAN membership. There will be ASEAN on one side, SAARC on the other, with Bangladesh in the middle. We can be with the two blocs at the same time. Then we will have a wider position.
Prothom Alo : Does joining ASEAN involve economic, business and diplomatic aspects or anything else?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: Basically its economic. It is a huge market which we can join. Indonesia doesn't even figure in the minds of the people in Bangladesh as a country. Such a big country is part of ASEAN, yet we neglect it. We needed to build good relations with Indonesia. We could have used this as an opportunity and benefitted from it. We have to expand our world to a wider sphere.
Prothom Alo: I had listened to a speech of yours long ago, 'Growing up with Two Giants, India and China'. After India, how do you view relations with China?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: Many years ago I had said that is was a large advantage for us. The fact that we are positioned between two large economies is a strength for us, not a weakness. We can learn from both the countries. We will have markets in both the countries. Both countries will come to us. We will have to go ahead maintaining relations with both these countries. This is an opportunity for us.
To be continued...............
Unite for reforms, this chance wonât come again
Dr. Muhammad Yunus during an interview with Prothom Alo editor Matiur Rahman
After the student-people uprising, Nobel laureate Professor Dr. Muhammad Yunus took over responsibility as chief advisor of Bangladeshâs interim government. At the request of the students, he took up this responsibility at a time of unprecedented political change. In an interview with Prothom Aloâs editor Matiur Rahman and diplomatic correspondent Raheed Ejaz, this eminent economist spoke at length on peopleâs dreams for a new Bangladesh, materialising these dreams through reforms in certain important sectors, a transition to democracy, and the prevailing state of affairs.
Prothom Alo : Everyone wants justice regarding all the killings that took place during the student-peopleâs movement. There is also all sorts of talk about trials in this connection. You yourself have also several times said that Sheikh Hasina will be placed on trial. She is presently in India. There is talk of asking for extradition. Do you have plans in this regard?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: We don't need to be a part of this. We are reforming the judicial system. Once the judicial system is reformed, then the issues will come forward, about who will be placed on trial, how justice will be carried out, who will carry out justice, and so on. We are not taking political decisions now. We are just creating the scope. Then you will proceed as you deem befitting. We are just facilitating.
Prothom Alo: But there was a government, a head of government, a cabinet, leaders behind all this injustice and wrongdoings. There are discussions and demands about themâŠ
Dr Muhammad Yunus: That is why they are being caught and arrested, taken to jail. Everything is being done. But we are not placing them on trial. First decide the process on how justice will be brought about and then follow that judicial process.
Prothom Alo : There has been considerable criticism about these arrests and cases. How far are the charges true, or how far can these charges be proven? How far can these cases take the trials ahead? These questions are popping up. Many say that this is just the same as in the past. Like the false cases. And the liability is falling upon you all. You are not being able to shrug off this liability.
Dr Muhammad Yunus: That is why judicial reforms are required. It is not as if it can be done just if I say so. That wonât be justice. There are laws for this, but the laws are not good. The laws need to be changed. If we simply made a declaration unilaterally, then we will be going towards autocracy again. We want to advance through a process. It is not as there are no errors in the judicial process. Mistakes are being made. When these mistakes are pointed out, we try to rectify them. You say we change decisions. If our mistakes are pointed out, we then change our decisions accordingly.
If we simply made a declaration unilaterally, then we will be going towards autocracy again
Prothom Alo : In the meantime we see conflict and hatred being spread in the society. There is the matter of mob justice. Many people have even died in such incidents. There is a sort of unrest prevailing. How will you control this?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: This is all about establishing law and order. These are matters of the law and order situation. These are not political matters. The killings and the mob justice are all matters of law and order. If law and order can be strengthened, this will not happen. If we step up social activities, if people take care of each other, then such things wonât happen. The government canât go and stop the fights. We can say that you will be punished if you fight.
I am repeatedly saying, we are a family. We may have different views, but that doesnât mean we are enemies. This must be made clear.
Prothom Alo : There is a demand looming large to ban Awami League, not to allow them to carry out political activities, not to allow them to join the election. What will you say about that?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: This too is not for us to decide upon. When the political parties sit and hold meetings, they will take a decision. We will take all political decisions from the political parties. We will act in accordance with their decisions.
Prothom Alo: But you will have a certain stand. Will that come through the commission?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: If the commission deems it will be beneficial for the country, this will be discussed when the matter of elections arise. In other words, that will be placed with the political parties too. They will draw up a draft. It is not that the commission will do it and that is final. The recommendations of the commission will go to the political parties. The political parties will debate among themselves, will discuss and deliberate and decide in which direction we will proceed.
Prothom Alo: Freedom of expression and media freedom are all much-discussed issues. These were impaired in various ways during the last government and before that too. We have faced repression in all sorts of ways. How can you reassure us that in the future press freedom, telling the truth, freedom of expression will continue unhindered?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: You have been able to enter the prime ministerâs office after 15 years. The government did not allow you to do so in these 15 years. Approaching the government was like crossing the Himalayas. But that has been crossed now. There are no obstacles for you now. It is up to you when you want to come, when you want to go. We do not control this. I am not the one to dictate who will read Prothom Alo and who will not read Prothom Alo! I do not have the authority to dictate who will advertise in Prothom Alo and who will not advertise in Prothom Alo. Why will we have this authority! Write as you please. Criticise. Unless you write, how will we know what is happening or not happening? We arenât any know-all that everything is just happening smoothly. If you all speak out, we can be cautious.
Prothom Alo : Then again, there still is the manner of certain laws. There are rules and regulations. There are the old laws which are detrimental to freedom of expression.
Dr Muhammad Yunus: That is why we are talking about a media commission. The media commission will point out to us the laws that need to be changed or need to be abrogated. We are not fighting for any laws here. We have no interests involved. We want to ensure that future generations cannot accuse us of creating any obstacles.
Write as you please. Criticise. Unless you write, how will we know what is happening or not happening?
Prothom Alo : A question has been raised as to how long you all will remain at the helm. When will you hold the election? There was mention of one and a half years or two years. Have you had the chance to fix a specific timeline?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: We are discussing this matter among ourselves. Our work is clear cut. This work is preparing for the election. We must start this work. There will be a stream of preparations for the elections. Then there is the work for reforms. These will go hand in hand. These are not separate matters that we will complete one and start the other.
The election preparations will be about the election, when it will be held, what can be done, how far we will go and so on. Then there are reforms. Reforms are pivotal. This election is to establish reforms. So, when the preparations for the election are done, the reforms are organised but not executed, then the question will arise whether you will go for reforms or for the election. That is up to you all.
We will carry out the preparations. You will see how much time we are giving to these tasks. You will keep an eye on that. So it is not that we will set a deadline or that you will take whatever we can give within this time frame. It is about two preparations. If you say, hold the election, we are ready to hold the election. But it would be wrong to hold the election first.
We will proceed with the election and the reforms at the same speed. We will reach a point when the election preparations are complete. Then the election can be held on any date announced. We will ask whether we will announce the election date or proceed a little further. That is how the time will be fixed.
Prothom Alo : So does that mean the time frame for the election depends on the matter of reforms?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: To a greater extent. The entire matter depends on what you all want. What will I gain by announcing a date! Some may say that they have a design, that they want to stay in power for a long time! Just take a look at the advisorsâ faces. They all look confined, as if saying - let us go. Some say I won't be able to survive with my children. How can I pay for my sonâs overseas studies with the salary you pay? This is our predicament -- letâs finish up fast.
None of us are aiming at staying for a prolonged time. We want the tasks to be carried out accurately. That is our objective. What I am repeatedly saying is, this opportunity will not come in the life of this nation again. This opportunity is here now. Put this opportunity to the utmost use. Use us to get the work done so we can all say in unison that the opportunity arose and we grasped that opportunity. Let no one say, the opportunity arose, but we did not grasp it. Let no one be able to say, you failed.
India may be disheartened at certain incidents in Bangladesh. They were not pleased with the changes.
Prothom Alo: Our foreign policy is 'friendship towards all'. That is the policy we follow. Due to our country's geographical and geopolitical standing, we have to take up various stands with various countries. India is our closest neighbour. In very recent times, certain tensions have developed between the two countries. This is evident in their words, behaviour and approach. What steps do you think should be taken to change this situation, to normalise relations between the two countries and ensure that the relations are balanced?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: Relations between the two countries must be very close. There can be no alternative to this. They need this, we need this. This is essential from any angle, whether it's about economics, security or water. It will be difficult for us to move along without each other. It is only natural that we have close ties and good relations in every sphere. There should not be any feeling that anyone is pressuring the other. This is a relationship between two sovereign countries. We will always endeavour to ensure this.
India may be disheartened at certain incidents in Bangladesh. They were not pleased with the changes. Things will be clear to them when they see that the entire world is accepting us, how can they not accept us. Since they must forge good relations, it is not as if we are forcing them. This is necessary in their own interests. Just as we need them in our interests, they need us in their interests. So we have to forget certain transient matters. There is no use in mulling over who said what about each other, who made cutting remarks and so on. These are just words. The main thing is to maintain good relations. We have to use everything in our power to advance towards that.
I have spoken about SAARC, even this time. There was interest in this. The heads of government of SAARC countries held meetings with me. I held meetings with everyone except with India. Sri Lanka couldn't come because they only just got their president. I would have had a meeting with him too. So even if just for formalities sake, the SAARC countries took a picture together, indicating that we are together.
Prothom Alo : That means in foreign policy, you are placing importance on balanced relations between Bangladesh and India?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: It is about strengthening ties and at the same time, strengthening SAARC.
Prothom Alo : You have brought the issue of SAARC considerably forward. SAARC hasn't been functional for a decade now.
Dr Muhammad Yunus: I have been pursuing this since the creation of SAARC. I feel that this is our future. The European Union can move ahead so closely despite such historical divides, we do not have such a history of conflict. Why can't we be able to move ahead? If we were united, our prospects and opportunities would increase so much. We will have to come to SAARC. We are extending this appeal to everyone. Whoever I have met, all said that they want SAARC.
Prothom Alo : But isn't the main hindrance to SAARC India and Pakistan relations?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: That can be resolved. Just because there is a problem, that doesn't mean it has to be kept up. There is a solution to this. It can't be that we will keep SAARC but keep the problem brewing too. It is not that there has to be a final resolution to the problem. But we can more or less reach a solution so that SAARC can function. India can keep certain things suspended with Pakistan, but even then move forward. This will be a major policy that I will pursue.
Then there is ASEAN. We should get ASEAN membership. There will be ASEAN on one side, SAARC on the other, with Bangladesh in the middle. We can be with the two blocs at the same time. Then we will have a wider position.
Prothom Alo : Does joining ASEAN involve economic, business and diplomatic aspects or anything else?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: Basically its economic. It is a huge market which we can join. Indonesia doesn't even figure in the minds of the people in Bangladesh as a country. Such a big country is part of ASEAN, yet we neglect it. We needed to build good relations with Indonesia. We could have used this as an opportunity and benefitted from it. We have to expand our world to a wider sphere.
Prothom Alo: I had listened to a speech of yours long ago, 'Growing up with Two Giants, India and China'. After India, how do you view relations with China?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: Many years ago I had said that is was a large advantage for us. The fact that we are positioned between two large economies is a strength for us, not a weakness. We can learn from both the countries. We will have markets in both the countries. Both countries will come to us. We will have to go ahead maintaining relations with both these countries. This is an opportunity for us.
To be continued...............