[🇵🇰] Untitled 1987 War Book - Discussion

[Aestas Vivax]

Revised
[Note; Army Aviation will be put with the army equipment] [Forgive minor mistakes]
Pakistan Air Force
Foreign Aid
3 Sqns of F-5A/Es [20 each] [Mostly Es] [Jordon, Turkey, Saudi]
5 sqns of Mirage Vs [12 each] [Libya, UAE, Egypt via Saudi]
1 Sqn of AH-1s [Towcobra, 12] [Jordon]

Newly Raised
2 sqn of F-16A/B OCU [40 As and 4 Bs]
2 Sqn of Mirage IIIO [24 Each]

Standing
1 Sqn Mirage III [15 EPs, 3DPs]
3 Sqn Mirage Vs [58]
4 Sqn Q-5 [50]
4 Sqn J-6 [110]
3 Sqn F-16 [28 As, 12 Bs]
2 Sqn J-7 [40]
1 Sqn Mirage IIIRP [12]

2 E-3A Leased

1 sqn with 12 C-130 (5-8, 7-E), 1 L-100
1 sqn with 3 Boeing 707, 3 Falcon 20, 2 F-27-200 (with Navy), 2 Beech (1 Travel Air, 1 Baron).

1 SAR hel sqn with 4 SA-319.
1 sqn with 12 SA-316, 4 SA-321


Indian Air Force
Standing
1 It bbr sqn with 9 Canberra.
5 sqn with 80 Jaguar IS.
14 sqn with 112 MiG-21 MF/PFMA.
3 sqn with 54 MiG-23 BN/UM.
4 sqn with 56 MiG-27.
4 sqn with 74 MiG-21 FL/U.
6 sqn with 108 MiG-21 bis/U.
2 sqn with 26 MiG-23 MF/UM.
3 sqn with 54 MiG-29/UB.
2 sqn with 36 Mirage 2000H/TH.
8 Jaguar with Sea Eagle.

1 Sqn with 18 Mi-25s
1 Sqn with 18 Mi-35s

1 Rec sqn with 8 Canberra PR.57.
1 Sqn with 6 MiG-25R, 2 MiG-25U.
1 sqn with 4 HS-748.
1 sqn with 2 Gulfstream IV SRA and 2 Learjet 29.
2 sqn with 30 An-12B
6 sqn with 108 An-32 Sutlej
1 sqn with 16 BAe-748;
2 sqn with 30 Do-228;
2 sqn with 24 Il-76 Gajraj
11 sqn with 80 Mi-8, 50 Mi-17, 10 Mi-26

Newly Raised
2 sqn with MiG-23MLD [36]
2 Sqn with MiG-21bis [36]
1 Sqn with MiG-31 [12]
1 Sqn with Mirage 2000H/TH [18]
2 sqn with 48 Mi-8
2 Tu-126 and 1 A-50 Leased

 

[Old School]

Any suggestions? Am unsure of what SAMs the Chinese have other than Sa-2s back in that time period

Right. PLA had a large number of HQ-2/ SA-2 back then. Vietcongs iwere successful in using this SAM though Saddam’s army took bribe and did not use them as such. However, most simulations done in the past suggests that we would have failed defending the sites. You have overlooked Soviet military stationed in Afghanistan at that time.

 

[Aestas Vivax]

Right. PLA had a large number of HQ-2/ SA-2 back then. Vietcongs iwere successful in using this SAM though Saddam’s army took bribe and did not use them as such. However, most simulations done in the past suggests that we would have failed defending the sites.

Sa-2 do suck, I do not think there would be a major impact unless you manage to put right on Srinagar lmao.

How many do you think the Chinese would give Pakistan, realistically.

 

[Old School]

Sa-2 do suck, I do not think there would be a major impact unless you manage to put right on Srinagar lmao.

How many do you think the Chinese would give Pakistan, realistic

They were in fact made available right after the Soviet invasion in Afghanistan. So at least 12 batteries.

 

[Old School]

The Soviets were more interested to see the Indo-Pak war than the Indians. They wanted us to move our focus from the Afghan operation. Soviets even lied to Indians about the Khalistan army to provoke an Indian attack on us. Operation Blue Star was a false flag operationbin reality and many innocents were killed.

 

[Aestas Vivax]

The Soviets were more interested to see the In do-Pak war than the Indians. They wanted us to move our focus from the Afghan operation. Soviets even lied to Indians about the Khalistan army to provoke an Indian attack on us. Operation Blue Star was a false flag operationbin reality and many innocents were killed.

Ngl, I am going to have to figure out the positioning of the Pakistani Armed Forces and Indian Armed Forces.

It is easier to do this for info post-2017, before that, it was a bit harder, so I need help with that, given that naturally, India had to worry about the PRC and Pakistan had to worry about the USSR.

 

[Old School]

Ngl, I am going to have to figure out the positioning of the Pakistani Armed Forces and Indian Armed Forces.

It is easier to do this for info post-2017, before that, it was a bit harder, so I need help with that, given that naturally, India had to worry about the PRC and Pakistan had to worry about the USSR.

PRC would never directly intervene for any country except DPRK unless mainland China is attacked. Be clear about that. PRC will never directly assist us in operation. But Soviet used to bomb our border posts and sent sabotage bombers to our cities time to time. We were also directly and physically taking part inside Afghanistan against the Soviets.

 

[Aestas Vivax]

PRC would never directly intervene for any country except DPRK unless mainland China is attacked. Be clear about that. PRC will never directly assist us in operation. But Soviet used to bomb our border posts and sent sabotage bombers to our cities time to time. We were also directly and physically taking part inside Afghanistan against the Soviets.

Hence, do you have any sources I could use for positioning during the 1980s, for both nations of India and Pakistan.

 

[Old School]

Hence, do you have any sources I could use for positioning during the 1980s, for both nations of India and Pakistan.

I have to give you something which is cleared for the public domain and not classified. Let me look and you can also search for the Indian ORBAT at that time as Indians usually love to show off while not caring much about information security.

 

[Aestas Vivax]

I have to give you something which is cleared for the public domain and not classified. Let me look and you can also search for the Indian ORBAT at that time as Indians usually love to show off while not caring much about information security.

Public domain would be great, and any outdated not useful stuff which won't call for a black van, would be great.

Searching Indian ORBAT gives nothing to me.

 

[Old School]

Searching Indian ORBAT gives nothing to me.

You need to do advanced search than simply googling. You have to know what documents you are looking. I usually look for books written by Indian generals and diplomats. Those are great resource. Indians love writing books too. Then you have to know which general’s book- Is he contemporary of that time?

 

[Lulldapull]

So the scenario is that we are heavily involved in Khalistan guerrilla war. IAF has covertly but unsuccessfully attacked Kahuta with minimal damage cuz the main facilities are buried deep in the mountains and the Soviets are massing troops on FATA borders. All three are plotting their next move.

 

[Lulldapull]

My line up in simple terms for both sides AF's will be as follows (remember, this is 1987 we are talking about):

PAF Operational
110 Mirage III/ V's
180 F-6's
54 A-5's
40 F-16's
First batch of 60 F-7P skybolts in slow induction (they had not really arrived until 1990 to replace F-6's)
PAF Reserves/ second line
15 B-57B's
40 F-86E's (mothballed) in storage
15 T-33's/ 25 T-37's
PAF emergency wartime requisitions
1 Sqd RJAF F-5E's
1 Sqd LARAF Mirage V's
possible 1 sqd UAE Mirage V's
Note: 1 sqd here means 10-12 aircraft.....not 24 aircraft!.....lol....in 71 war all we could muster were 9 RJAF F-104A's and then Shah Iran agreed to belatedly send us a sqd of F-5E's toward the end of the war.

IAF Operational
500 Mig-21FL's/ M's/ Bis
40 Mig-23MF's
40Mig-23BN's
40 Mig-27's
40 Mirage 2000's
40 Mig-29's
IAF Reserve/ second line
50 Su-7's in long term storage
60 Hawker Hunters
50 Canberra
80 Ajeet
40 Marut's (mothballed) in storage

 

[Aestas Vivax]

My line up in simple terms for both sides AF's will be as follows (remember, this is 1987 we are talking about):

PAF Operational
110 Mirage III/ V's
180 F-6's
54 A-5's
40 F-16's
First batch of 60 F-7P skybolts in slow induction (they had not really arrived until 1990 to replace F-6's)
PAF Reserves/ second line
15 B-57B's
40 F-86E's (mothballed) in storage
15 T-33's/ 25 T-37's
PAF emergency wartime requisitions
1 Sqd RJAF F-5E's
1 Sqd LARAF Mirage V's
possible 1 sqd UAE Mirage V's
Note: 1 sqd here means 10-12 aircraft.....not 24 aircraft!.....lol....in 71 war all we could muster were 9 RJAF F-104A's and then Shah Iran agreed to belatedly send us a sqd of F-5E's toward the end of the war.

IAF Operational
500 Mig-21FL's/ M's/ Bis
40 Mig-23MF's
40Mig-23BN's
40 Mig-27's
40 Mirage 2000's
40 Mig-29's
IAF Reserve/ second line
50 Su-7's in long term storage
60 Hawker Hunters
50 Canberra
80 Ajeet
40 Marut's (mothballed) in storage

I still belive the revised list I made is better.

Essentially a rushed arms race, with Pakistan get the Volunteer forces to ensure that despite the lack of numbers, quality is high enough. PAF is going to be the tip of the spear, and they need everything to ensure that they give the Ground Troops enough time to bust the door open.

PAF irl should have pushed for the F-20, to replace it's F-6 and A-5 fleet, would give a decent edge.

 

[Lulldapull]

I still belive the revised list I made is better.

Essentially a rushed arms race, with Pakistan get the Volunteer forces to ensure that despite the lack of numbers, quality is high enough. PAF is going to be the tip of the spear, and they need everything to ensure that they give the Ground Troops enough time to bust the door open.

PAF irl should have pushed for the F-20, to replace it's F-6 and A-5 fleet, would give a decent edge.

You have to keep in mind that a good half of the IAF strength was 24/7 deployed up north to face the Chinese threat. With IAF’s western command getting the bulk of the remainder. So you could say that the disparity between the IAF vs the PAF was not as stark as the numbers denote.