[🇵🇰] Untitled 1987 War Book - Discussion

[Aestas Vivax]

You have to keep in mind that a good half of the IAF strength was 24/7 deployed up north to face the Chinese threat. With IAF’s western command getting the bulk of the remainder. So you could say that the disparity between the IAF vs the PAF was not as stark as the numbers denote.

1980s, Bulk of the IAF was still aimed at Pakistan. Chinese lacked the facilities to really target India, hence why the wake up call after Galwan, since the Chinese had more assets due to increase of infrastructure.

 

[Lulldapull]

1980s, Bulk of the IAF was still aimed at Pakistan. Chinese lacked the facilities to really target India, hence why the wake up call after Galwan, since the Chinese had more assets due to increase of infrastructure.

True, but they both had a sharp short war in 1975. IAF started deploying assets up north and created their northern command, relieving the pressure on us.

 

[Aestas Vivax]

True, but they both had a sharp short war in 1975.

True, but they both had a sharp short war in 1975. IAF started deploying assets up north and created their northern command, relieving the pressure on us.

Still, there is enough to outnumber the PAF 3:1.

 

[Aestas Vivax]

As per the Military Balance.

Indian Army
ARMY: 1,100,000.
HQ: 5 Regional Comd (- Fd Army), 10 Corps.
2 armd div (each 2/3 armed, 1 SP arty (2 SP fd, 1 med regt) bde).
1 mech div (each 3 mech (4/6 mech bn, 3 armd regt), 1 arty bde).
21 inf div (each 2-5 inf, 1 arty bde; some have armd regt).
11 mtn div (each 3-4 bde, 1 or more arty regt). 19 indep bde: 8 armd, 9 inf, 1 mtn, 1 AB/cdo. 5 indep arty bde.
5 AD bde.
4 engr bde.
These formations comprise:
56 tk regt (bn).
25 mech, 332 inf bn.
9 AB/cdo bn.
190 arty regt (bn): incl 1 hy, 5 MRL, 50 med (11 SP), 69 fd (3 SP), 39 mtn.
29 AD arty regt; perhaps 10 SAM gp (3-5 bty each). 7 sqn, 25 flt, Air Observation.
6 ATK/tpt, 4 liaison hel sqn.
EQUIPMENT:
MBT: 3,100 (500 in store): some 500 T-55, 900 T-72/-M1, 1,700 Vijayanta.
LIGHT TANKS: 100 PT-76.
RECCE: BRDM-2.
AIFV: 800 BMP-1/-2 (Sarath).
APC: 400 OT-62/-64, 50 BTR-60.
TOWED ARTY: over 4,000 incl: 75mm/76mm: 900 75/24 mtn, 215 Yug M-48; 88mm: 1,000 25-pdr (retiring); 100mm: 185 M-1944; 105mm: some 800 (incl M-56 pack), some 100 IFG Mk II; 130mm: 550 M-46; 140mm: 150 5.5-in (retiring); 155mm: 410 FH-77B.
SP ARTY: 105mm: 80 Abbot; 130mm: 100 mod M-46
MRL: 122mm: 80 BM-21.
MORTARS: 81mm: L16A1; 82mm: M-43; 120mm: 1,000 M-43; 160mm: 200 M-43.
ATGW: SS-11-B1, Milan, AT-3 Sagger, AT-4 Spigot.
RCL: 57mm: M-18; 84mm: Carl Gustav, 106mm: 1,000+ M-40A1.
AD GUNS 2,750: 23mm: 140 ZU 23-2, 75 ZSU-23-4
SP; 40mm: 1,245 L40/60, 790 L40/70; 94mm: 500 3.7-in.
SAM: 26 SA-6, 620 SA-7, 20 SA-8A/-B, SA-13,
SA-16, 25 Tigercat launchers.
HELICOPTERS: 9 sqn with 50 Chetak, 40 Cheetah, 30 Krishnar Mk2.

RESERVES: Territorial Army: 30 inf bn.
DEPLOYMENT:
North- 1 Corps with 2 inf, 1 mtn div; I mtn, I indep inf, 1 indep arty bde. 1 Corps with 4 inf div; 2 indep armd, I indep inf, 2 indep arty bde.
West- 1 Corps with 1 armd, I mech div; 1 Corps with 2 inf div; 1 Corps with 3 inf div.
Central - 1 Corps with 1 armd, 2 inf div, plus 3 indep div (2 inf, 1 mtn).
East -3 Corps each with 3 mtn div.
South 1 Corps with 4 inf div.

Pakistan
ARMY: 500,000+.
Corps HQ, 1 area comd.
2 armd div.
19 inf div.
6 indep armd bde.
5 indep inf bde.
7 corps arty bde (2 more forming).
4 AD arty bde. 5 engr bde.
3 armd recce regt. 1 SF gp (3 bn).
Av: 1 ac, 4 hel sqn; indep observation flt.

EQUIPMENT:
MBT: 1,980+: 150 M-47, 280 M-48A5, 50 T-54/-55, 1.300 Ch Type-59, 200 Ch Type-69.
APC: 800 M-113.
TOWED ARTY: 1,405: 85mm: 200 Ch Type-56; 88mm: 200 25-pdr; 105mm: 300 M-101, 50 M-56 pack; 122mm: 200 Ch Type-60; 130mm: 200 Ch
175 Type-59-1; 140mm: 45 5.5in; 155mm: 30 M-59, 60 M-114, 100 M-198; 203mm: 20 M-115. SP ARTY: 215: 105mm: 50 M-7; 155mm: 125 M-109A2; 203mm: 40 M-110A2.
MRL: 122mm: 36 BM-11.
MORTARS: 81mm; 120mm: AM-50, M-61. SSM: Hatf-1, Hatf-2.
ATGW: 200 Cobra, 224 TOW (incl 24 on M-901 SP).
Ch Red Arrow.
RL: 89mm: M-20 3.5-in.
RCL: 75mm: Type-52; 106mm: M-40A1.
AD GUNS: 14.5mm; 35mm: 200 GDF-002; 37mm: Ch Type-55/-65; 40mm: M1, 100 L/60; 57mm: Ch Type-59.
SAM: 100 Stinger, Redeye, 144 RBS-70, 500 Anza

AVIATION:
AIRCRAFT:
SURVEY: 1 Commander 840.
LIAISON: 1 Cessna 421, 2 Commander 690,
80 Mashshaq.
OBSERVATION: 40 O-1E, 50 Mashshaq.
HELICOPTERS:
ATTACK: 20 AH-IF (TOW).
TRANSPORT: 7 Bell 205, 10-206B, 16 Mi-8, 6 IAR/SA-315B, 23 IAR/SA-316, 35 SA-330, 5 UH-1H.

 

[Aestas Vivax]

Do give suggestions to what could be added in the 1 year of build up

 

[Old School]

You also need to include the fuel supply and production capacity of the respective military-industrial complexes in both Pakistan and India, as the troops will run out of ammunition/ spare parts very quickly in wartime, and import is not an option, which is time-consuming in case of a naval blockade/ embargo/ sanctions. Logistics has been the most critical factor in the military since the birth of the military thousands of years ago. An army never loses the war due to training, but it loses due to logistical shortcomings. We lost East Pakistan due to logistical issues. Amateurs talk about hardware/training, while professionals talk about logistics regarding military affairs.

 

[Aestas Vivax]

You also need to include the fuel supply and production capacity of the respective military-industrial complexes in both Pakistan and India, as the troops will run out of ammunition/ spare parts very quickly in wartime, and import is not an option, which is time-consuming in case of a naval blockade/ embargo/ sanctions. Logistics has been the most critical factor in the military since the birth of the military thousands of years ago. An army never loses the war due to training, but it loses due to logistical shortcomings. Amateurs talk about hardware/training, while professionals talk about logistics regarding military affairs.

I basically have the Soviets do the heavy lifting for Indian supply, with the Arabs doing their best for Pakistan.

On ground stuff, I won't comment, that's for people to read :>

 

[Old School]

I basically have the Soviets do the heavy lifting for Indian supply, with the Arabs doing their best for Pakistan.

On ground stuff, I won't comment, that's for people to read :>

Arabs will not move one inch, and Indians never needed the Soviets to supply due to their gigantic domestic military-industrial complex. Arabs will only accommodate our leaders if they need asylum while fleeing from Pakistan from the people, as happened in the past. Please read about the Indian military-industrial complex's production capacity, which is bigger than the entire EU and third to China and Russia.

 

[Aestas Vivax]

Arabs will not move one inch, and Indians never needed the Soviets to supply due to their gigantic domestic military-industrial complex. Arabs will only accommodate our leaders if they need asylum while fleeing from Pakistan from the people, as happened in the past. Please read about the Indian military-industrial complex's production capacity, which is bigger than the entire EU and third to China and Russia.

I do not think India in the late 1980s is as capable as it is currently. Sure they can mobilize for a long war, but for a 2 week war, which I have planned, short term matters.

What do you suggest be done for Pakistan? Don't want it to be a Indian of Pakistani wankfest, and want a neutral like book which both sides can enjoy.

 

[Old School]

I do not think India in the late 1980s is as capable as it is currently. Sure they can mobilize for a long war, but for a 2 week war, which I have planned, short term matters.

What do you suggest be done for Pakistan? Don't want it to be a Indian of Pakistani wankfest, and want a neutral like book which both sides can enjoy.

You can write as it stood in the late 80's for real, with Pakistan as the underdog without a declared nuclear deterrent. Karachi port is the flash point under threat as the central logistical hub. Iran is aligned with India due to Zia-ul-Haq's proximity to anti-Shiite forces backed by Saudis at that time and still is—Afghanistan under the Soviet military. China was building the economy with Western help,p and they hardly had spare resources interest Pakistan. There is no land corridor to Pakistan !!! That was the accurate picture. You can portray it as a stalemate, with both sides suffering huge losses and settling for a ceasefire after two weeks.

 

[Aestas Vivax]

You can write as it stood in the late 80's for real, with Pakistan as the underdog without a declared nuclear deterrent. Karachi port is the flash point under threat as the central logistical hub. Iran is aligned with India due to Zia-ul-Haq's proximity to anti-Shiite forces backed by Saudis at that time and still is—Afghanistan under the Soviet military. China was building the economy with Western help,p and they hardly had spare resources interest Pakistan. There is no land corridor to Pakistan !!! That was the accurate picture. You can portray it as a stalemate, with both sides suffering huge losses and settling for a ceasefire after two weeks.

Now, I need to plan the 2 weeks of Air operations urghhhhhh.

 

[Lulldapull]

As per the Military Balance.

Indian Army
ARMY: 1,100,000.
HQ: 5 Regional Comd (- Fd Army), 10 Corps.
2 armd div (each 2/3 armed, 1 SP arty (2 SP fd, 1 med regt) bde).
1 mech div (each 3 mech (4/6 mech bn, 3 armd regt), 1 arty bde).
21 inf div (each 2-5 inf, 1 arty bde; some have armd regt).
11 mtn div (each 3-4 bde, 1 or more arty regt). 19 indep bde: 8 armd, 9 inf, 1 mtn, 1 AB/cdo. 5 indep arty bde.
5 AD bde.
4 engr bde.
These formations comprise:
56 tk regt (bn).
25 mech, 332 inf bn.
9 AB/cdo bn.
190 arty regt (bn): incl 1 hy, 5 MRL, 50 med (11 SP), 69 fd (3 SP), 39 mtn.
29 AD arty regt; perhaps 10 SAM gp (3-5 bty each). 7 sqn, 25 flt, Air Observation.
6 ATK/tpt, 4 liaison hel sqn.
EQUIPMENT:
MBT: 3,100 (500 in store): some 500 T-55, 900 T-72/-M1, 1,700 Vijayanta.
LIGHT TANKS: 100 PT-76.
RECCE: BRDM-2.
AIFV: 800 BMP-1/-2 (Sarath).
APC: 400 OT-62/-64, 50 BTR-60.
TOWED ARTY: over 4,000 incl: 75mm/76mm: 900 75/24 mtn, 215 Yug M-48; 88mm: 1,000 25-pdr (retiring); 100mm: 185 M-1944; 105mm: some 800 (incl M-56 pack), some 100 IFG Mk II; 130mm: 550 M-46; 140mm: 150 5.5-in (retiring); 155mm: 410 FH-77B.
SP ARTY: 105mm: 80 Abbot; 130mm: 100 mod M-46
MRL: 122mm: 80 BM-21.
MORTARS: 81mm: L16A1; 82mm: M-43; 120mm: 1,000 M-43; 160mm: 200 M-43.
ATGW: SS-11-B1, Milan, AT-3 Sagger, AT-4 Spigot.
RCL: 57mm: M-18; 84mm: Carl Gustav, 106mm: 1,000+ M-40A1.
AD GUNS 2,750: 23mm: 140 ZU 23-2, 75 ZSU-23-4
SP; 40mm: 1,245 L40/60, 790 L40/70; 94mm: 500 3.7-in.
SAM: 26 SA-6, 620 SA-7, 20 SA-8A/-B, SA-13,
SA-16, 25 Tigercat launchers.
HELICOPTERS: 9 sqn with 50 Chetak, 40 Cheetah, 30 Krishnar Mk2.

RESERVES: Territorial Army: 30 inf bn.
DEPLOYMENT:
North- 1 Corps with 2 inf, 1 mtn div; I mtn, I indep inf, 1 indep arty bde. 1 Corps with 4 inf div; 2 indep armd, I indep inf, 2 indep arty bde.
West- 1 Corps with 1 armd, I mech div; 1 Corps with 2 inf div; 1 Corps with 3 inf div.
Central - 1 Corps with 1 armd, 2 inf div, plus 3 indep div (2 inf, 1 mtn).
East -3 Corps each with 3 mtn div.
South 1 Corps with 4 inf div.

Pakistan
ARMY: 500,000+.
Corps HQ, 1 area comd.
2 armd div.
19 inf div.
6 indep armd bde.
5 indep inf bde.
7 corps arty bde (2 more forming).
4 AD arty bde. 5 engr bde.
3 armd recce regt. 1 SF gp (3 bn).
Av: 1 ac, 4 hel sqn; indep observation flt.

EQUIPMENT:
MBT: 1,980+: 150 M-47, 280 M-48A5, 50 T-54/-55, 1.300 Ch Type-59, 200 Ch Type-69.
APC: 800 M-113.
TOWED ARTY: 1,405: 85mm: 200 Ch Type-56; 88mm: 200 25-pdr; 105mm: 300 M-101, 50 M-56 pack; 122mm: 200 Ch Type-60; 130mm: 200 Ch
175 Type-59-1; 140mm: 45 5.5in; 155mm: 30 M-59, 60 M-114, 100 M-198; 203mm: 20 M-115. SP ARTY: 215: 105mm: 50 M-7; 155mm: 125 M-109A2; 203mm: 40 M-110A2.
MRL: 122mm: 36 BM-11.
MORTARS: 81mm; 120mm: AM-50, M-61. SSM: Hatf-1, Hatf-2.
ATGW: 200 Cobra, 224 TOW (incl 24 on M-901 SP).
Ch Red Arrow.
RL: 89mm: M-20 3.5-in.
RCL: 75mm: Type-52; 106mm: M-40A1.
AD GUNS: 14.5mm; 35mm: 200 GDF-002; 37mm: Ch Type-55/-65; 40mm: M1, 100 L/60; 57mm: Ch Type-59.
SAM: 100 Stinger, Redeye, 144 RBS-70, 500 Anza

AVIATION:
AIRCRAFT:
SURVEY: 1 Commander 840.
LIAISON: 1 Cessna 421, 2 Commander 690,
80 Mashshaq.
OBSERVATION: 40 O-1E, 50 Mashshaq.
HELICOPTERS:
ATTACK: 20 AH-IF (TOW).
TRANSPORT: 7 Bell 205, 10-206B, 16 Mi-8, 6 IAR/SA-315B, 23 IAR/SA-316, 35 SA-330, 5 UH-1H.

You are missing the T-62 tanks in IA. A good 1000 were in service.

 

[Aestas Vivax]

You are missing the T-62 tanks in IA. A good 1000 were in service.

India never operated the T-62?

 

[Lulldapull]

India never operated the T-62?

They did and it was their mainstay in the 80’s and 90’s. A dangerous tank!

 

[Aestas Vivax]

They did and it was their mainstay in the 80’s and 90’s. A dangerous tank!

Show proof of T-62s.

Only Russian tanks in IA service were T-55s and T-72s, according to my knowledge.