[🇵🇰] Will Pakistan ever function as a secular state?

[Old School]

Source : https://tribune.com.pk/article/42202/will-pakistan-ever-function-as-a-secular-state

In Pakistan and, in fact, most of the Islamic world, the very concept of secularism is completely misunderstood. Somehow the concept has been thoroughly confused and amalgamated with atheism. An overwhelming majority of politicians, and even intellectuals, often try to defend themselves when "accused" of being secular, particularly on mainstream online media and Urdu print media. To declare oneself as a secular is considered equivalent to being considered an atheist in the public imagination.
The entire atmosphere is riddled with severe misconceptions about secularism. Due to fear of being branded an "atheist" and anti-Islamic, the word secular, in both letter and spirit, is virtually absent from the discourse. Even those who understand that secularism is fundamentally different from atheism often raise the question: "what good is secularism?" and "all we need is the right interpretation of religion."
What these "reinterpretation" folks fail to understand is that there are often multiple interpretations of religious text and while at the individual level, one has the option to choose one over the other without infringing on anyone's freedom, laws have to be uniformly applied across the board. So if we want to base our laws on shariah, eventually we will have to privilege one interpretation over the other since law cannot be selectively applied.
Treating religion as a personal matter is extremely essential as its projection into the public sphere is what causes discrimination and also leads to varying patterns of State sanctioned benefits and costs. By treating religion as a personal affair, a society tries to at least reduce such possibilities and reduce chances that a religious minority feels excluded. Muslim followers are not monolithic (as they are divided into sects), therefore a secular State, by being neutral (at least theoretically), ensures neutrality on religious grounds.

 

[Malang]

Not for the next 100 years and I won’t be alive to debate after that.

Pakistan will not be secular state even though most of its leaders are secular at heart. The Pakistan Peoples Party, The MQM, The Parvez Musharraf era and the military rules were generally secular governments.

 

[Deleted due to Error (Muji Iqbal)]

Pakistan should be an Islamic country. Islam also says to tolerate religious minorities and protect them as well.

 

[Lulldapull]

I believe the real test of being secular is if you don't reference nor bring up religion in your daily public discourse. The western Europeans have mastered this art rather well. Total separation of church and state. Humreeki (save for the NE/ SW) large metro areas are still fairly Evangelical/ Zionist. Problem is the US has weaponized/ commercialized religion into an industry.

For our country, we never had real (elected) leadership to play the mentoring/ leadership role. Ayub Khan tried his best to cultivate our society along the western model, but he could only do so much. Jinnah sahb was totally secular. So was Bhutto for the most part. I believe our state has not really played the role of a committed stakeholder with a vision, invested in the future of our nation.

 

[Old School]

I believe the real test of being secular is if you don't reference nor bring up religion in your daily public discourse. The western Europeans have mastered this art rather well. Total separation of church and state. Humreeki (save for the NE/ SW) large metro areas are still fairly Evangelical/ Zionist. Problem is the US has weaponized/ commercialized religion into an industry.

For our country, we never had real (elected) leadership to play the mentoring/ leadership role. Ayub Khan tried his best to cultivate our society along the western model, but he could only do so much. Jinnah sahb was totally secular. So was Bhutto for the most part. I believe our state has not really played the role of a committed stakeholder with a vision, invested in the future of our nation.

Our country never had an Islamic revolution to become an Islamic Republic. When We gained independence from Britain under Jinnah, our country's name was the "Dominion of Pakistan." It became a pseudo-Islamic Republic with fake Sharia laws during the generals ' rule. No one ever voted in a referendum for the Islamic Republic, either. Therefore, this religious dogma only came from the army barracks, not the people. It is easy. Another general will have to remove this fake tag. The rest of the moulvis will run away when there is no money to milk. Londonistanis and few will be unhappy, but who cares! We need the separation of religion and state affairs; another general will do it.

 

[Deleted due to Error (Muji Iqbal)]

Our country never had an Islamic revolution to become an Islamic Republic. When We gained independence from Britain under Jinnah, our country's name was the "Dominion of Pakistan." It became a pseudo-Islamic Republic with fake Sharia laws during the generals ' rule. No one ever voted in a referendum for the Islamic Republic, either. Therefore, this religious dogma only came from the army barracks, not the people. It is easy. Another general will have to remove this fake tag. The rest of the moulvis will run away when there is no money to milk. Londonistanis and few will be unhappy, but who cares! We need the separation of religion and state affairs; another general will do it.

Come on mate, If Pakistan does not become an Islamic country, what was the point of partition.

Islamic laws also tolerate other religions and protect the rights of minorities.

If we implement Islamic laws like cutting of the hand and stoning to death for adultery, then crime would be a lot less.

 

[Lulldapull]

Our country never had an Islamic revolution to become an Islamic Republic. When We gained independence from Britain under Jinnah, our country's name was the "Dominion of Pakistan." It became a pseudo-Islamic Republic with fake Sharia laws during the generals ' rule. No one ever voted in a referendum for the Islamic Republic, either. Therefore, this religious dogma only came from the army barracks, not the people. It is easy. Another general will have to remove this fake tag. The rest of the moulvis will run away when there is no money to milk. Londonistanis and few will be unhappy, but who cares! We need the separation of religion and state affairs; another general will do it.

Bhai Iran k saath dekheen kya howa hae…..🫣….shah Pehlvi sahb and Ayub khan, yahya khan and Bhutto sahb we’re all chaddi yaar…..he almost turned Iran into a first world country.

Instead what happened over in Iran is that the communists infiltrated and caused all these Muslim dramay.

Now Iran has turned into a jungli animal. Whole Irani society is liberal, but they have been turned into a mini USSR.

All we got is ghareeb mercenary on offer for the west. Irani Sawdi floating on massive energy and the west will never leave them alone. And believe me issy vaja say the impact on us as impressionable ghareeb Muslims is horrible!

This is what is going on in our region.

We seriously need a total political makeover in our country. We are just an innocent exploited country.

 

[Lulldapull]

I believe if the Shah stuck around another quarter century……most of the relevant Muslim world would’ve totally become secular and modern and progressive.

Mager nahi……hum itnay khush qismat nahi hain.

 

[Old School]

I believe if the Shah stuck around another quarter century……most of the relevant Muslim world would’ve totally become secular and modern and progressive.

Mager nahi……hum itnay khush qismat nahi hain.

Our government plays Islam just like any street beggar does- start reciting. They even don't believe what they say about religion. It is all about money. The more someone talks about religion, the darker side they have.

 

[Lulldapull]

Our government plays Islam just like any street beggar does- start reciting. They even don't believe what they say about religion. It is all about money. The more someone talks about religion, the darker side they have.

Lot of people now saying that we are not going to make it if things continue on like this. Our situation is getting more n more difficult and there is just no leadership for a long time. PML/ PTI or PPP are not going to cut it. Army is after saving its own neck in these circumstances. They are the only thing standing or we disintegrate in the blink of an eye.

Our bewquff awaam thinks mazhab will save us…..😝

 

[Old School]

Lot of people now saying that we are not going to make it if things continue on like this. Our situation is getting more n more difficult and there is just no leadership for a long time. PML/ PTI or PPP are not going to cut it. Army is after saving its own neck in these circumstances. They are the only thing standing or we disintegrate in the blink of an eye.

Our bewquff awaam thinks mazhab will save us…..😝

The whole nation has become a bunch of spoiled minors which now seriously needs adult supervision. If a politician goes to jail just because of his marriage, this country is already doomed.

 

[Delta2]

Our government plays Islam just like any street beggar does- start reciting. They even don't believe what they say about religion. It is all about money. The more someone talks about religion, the darker side they have.

Have pondered on this a lot.

Have you heard the old Arab story of a pious man who walked on his toes because he was afraid he might step on an ant?

 

[Old School]

It wasn't meant to be a theocracy that is for sure.

According to Jinnahs own words.

Every one of you, no matter to what community he belongs, no matter what relations he had with you in the past, no matter what is his colour, caste, or creed, is first, second, and last a citizen of this state with equal rights, privileges, and obligations, there will be no end to the progress you will make. […] You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed — that has nothing to do with the business of the state.

— Jinnah’s address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan (11 August 1947)

“…the great majority of us are Muslims. We follow the teachings of the Prophet Mohammad (peace by upon him). We are members of the brotherhood of Islam in which all are equal in rights, dignity and self-respect. Consequently, we have a special and a very deep sense of unity. But make no mistake: Pakistan is not a theocracy or anything like it. Islam demands from us tolerance of other creeds and we welcome in closest association with us all those who, whatever creed, are themselves willing and ready to play their party as true and loyal citizens of Pakistan.”

— Jinnah’s address to ABC Radio in Australia (19 February 1948)

“…we will be the democratic type, embodying the essential principles of Islam. Today, they are as applicable in actual life as they were 1300 years ago. Islam and its idealism have taught us democracy. It has taught equality of man, justice and fair play to everybody. We are inheritors of these glorious traditions and are fully alive to our responsibilities and obligations as framers of the future constitution of Pakistan. In any case Pakistan is not going to be theocratic state — to be ruled by priests with a divine mission. We have many non-Muslims — Hindus, Christians and Parsis — but they are all Pakistanis. They will enjoy the same rights and privileges as any other citizens and will play their rightful part in the affairs of Pakistan.”

— Jinnah’s address to the people of the United States (21 February 1948)

Pakistan has officially become a perverted theocratic republic. It is the reality. Illiterate and half-educated people dictate the fate of this country, which was never meant to be like this. People are practicing jahiliyyat in the name of religion. Whenever I criticize, I criticize this crypto-Jahilyyat - a perverted form of religious doctrine. It has nothing to do with actual religion.

 

[Lulldapull]

It wasn't meant to be a theocracy that is for sure.

According to Jinnahs own words.

Every one of you, no matter to what community he belongs, no matter what relations he had with you in the past, no matter what is his colour, caste, or creed, is first, second, and last a citizen of this state with equal rights, privileges, and obligations, there will be no end to the progress you will make. […] You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed — that has nothing to do with the business of the state.

— Jinnah’s address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan (11 August 1947)

“…the great majority of us are Muslims. We follow the teachings of the Prophet Mohammad (peace by upon him). We are members of the brotherhood of Islam in which all are equal in rights, dignity and self-respect. Consequently, we have a special and a very deep sense of unity. But make no mistake: Pakistan is not a theocracy or anything like it. Islam demands from us tolerance of other creeds and we welcome in closest association with us all those who, whatever creed, are themselves willing and ready to play their party as true and loyal citizens of Pakistan.”

— Jinnah’s address to ABC Radio in Australia (19 February 1948)

“…we will be the democratic type, embodying the essential principles of Islam. Today, they are as applicable in actual life as they were 1300 years ago. Islam and its idealism have taught us democracy. It has taught equality of man, justice and fair play to everybody. We are inheritors of these glorious traditions and are fully alive to our responsibilities and obligations as framers of the future constitution of Pakistan. In any case Pakistan is not going to be theocratic state — to be ruled by priests with a divine mission. We have many non-Muslims — Hindus, Christians and Parsis — but they are all Pakistanis. They will enjoy the same rights and privileges as any other citizens and will play their rightful part in the affairs of Pakistan.”

— Jinnah’s address to the people of the United States (21 February 1948)

oh bhai, the same thing happened in Iran in 1979! The revolution was about expelling the western colonialists and occupiers of national resources, but the mulla's were installed by the US to ensure communism is kept out of Iran. In our country, Bhutto sahb clearly told Henry kissinger to sod off and he will not play toady muzlim to CIA machinations on Afghanistan, because Bibrak Karmal had already turned socialist sorkha. Jimmy Carter was scared that the entire muzlim whulld will turn socialist. Zia ul Huq was quickly brought in and Bhutto hanged.

And you think I'm a larper? lol.......

Most of us here are liberals and disregard religion and western machinations on abusing it......god knows what makes you think I'm a larper?

Jinnah was a liberal atheist, just like Nehru was no? Everybody knows.

 

[Old School]

oh bhai, the same thing happened in Iran in 1979! The revolution was about expelling the western colonialists and occupiers of national resources, but the mulla's were installed by the US to ensure communism is kept out of Iran. In our country, Bhutto sahb clearly told Henry kissinger to sod off and he will not play toady muzlim to CIA machinations on Afghanistan, because Bibrak Karmal had already turned socialist sorkha. Jimmy Carter was scared that the entire muzlim whulld will turn socialist. Zia ul Huq was quickly brought in and Bhutto hanged.

And you think I'm a larper? lol.......

Most of us here are liberals and disregard religion and western machinations on abusing it......god knows what makes you think I'm a larper?

Jinnah was a liberal atheist, just like Nehru was no? Everybody knows.

Jinnah was exactly as myself- a freethinker. So was Nehru. Real educated people do not become fanatic mollahs.